the swimming body idea and yin branch styles?

[edededed]

Cool - thanks for the reply.

A bit about Sun: It seems unlikely that Sun would have had contact with Yin stylists, I think, judging from his book with all the biographies and recorded commentaries from his various teachers/fellow practitioners, as for baguazhang, Cheng Tinghua was the only person he quoted at all; also, at the time, there were very few written sources for baguazhang, I think - Sun's book was one of the first, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, shousanli and quchi during dai does sound like a good idea

[yeniseri]

I'm not sure on Sun Lu Tang's source of information or where he learned the Songs.
I don't think Sun Lu Tang actually knew the animal systems just the postures or what would be called the 8 mother palms.

From what I underatand about Sun Lutang, the 'animal' flavours was never his cup of tea, as it were. He was more of a realist when it came to skill and I believe, that his main forte was hsingi so he already has a background. If I recall, in one of his biographies, it was stated that Sun Lutang already had the inner jibengong and shenfa of his main art but he did pick up the outer shell of baquazhang throught his variation of it. It does not mean that it was different from his teachers but its concepts and principles were in line with baquazhang/quan's stated purpose!

Cheng Tinghua was skilled in shuaijiao so (to me) it makes sense that when he incorporated baquaquan, it had a throwing emphasis based on his orientation and knowledge!

[D_Glenn]

Cheng Tinghua was skilled in shuaijiao so that is why Dong Haichuan taught him the Dragon System because it has all the Shuai Jiao type of techniques and the concept of that sport type of mentality. The Dragon is the Zhen trigram which sits on the east side of the Bagua where the sun rises and represents a more true Yang and it really is the most yang of all the animals ( The Lion is the qian/yang trigram but it uses yang force and yang strategy within Yin techniques.) Where the Dragon uses a yang strategy within yang techniques. It is also the oldest son which combined with Yang strategy means that it likes to fight which is seen in it's 8 methods in which the first 6 of it's methods - pushing, lifting, leading, carrying, moving, and capturing all give the opponent somewhat of a fighting chance and don't seek to maim or permanently damage the opponent. Like the sport of Shuai Jiao it likes to throw the opponent down and in a manner that they could still get back up if they chose to. It has the idea of overwhelming and overpowering the opponent so much that after being thrown they still have the capability to get back up but will choose not to. It wants to win by attrition or forfeit. However it does always have option to 'finish' a fight with the last 2 attacking methods of chopping and entering with entering basically being any of the other methods done with intent to 'finish' or end the fight while standing. The Dragon being the Zhen trigram represented by 'Thunder' also seeks to have this quality of the rolling shocking thundering sound so it strives to use 振 Zhèn (Shocking force) in all of it's techniques which is a power that comes from the legs or rather the practitioner shocks into their own legs while the upper body is loose and this force is then felt by the opponent. The dragon is very strong but the opponent doesn't directly feel this they only feel a quick jerking called 'Seeking out the bones of the opponent' meaning their skeletal structure is being yanked around. So the dragon is a 'hard'/strong (gang) style but done with a loose/relaxed/soft (rou) upper body.

But if you really wanted to make the Dragon more lethal then you would want to learn/teach someone some of the actual Snake system which is the middle son and it's personality is that it hates fighting and wants to finish the fight as quickly as possible and without any chance that the opponent can get back up. It too has throws but these are all more what Shuai Jiao considers the 'dark hand' throws as it will tie up the opponent's arms then do a large overhead throw and drive the opponent's head into the ground with force. All of it's 8 methods are designed to 'finish' the fight. You can't really 'extract' the 'dark hand' aspect out of it. Also the snake is like a constrictor type of snake and like when you hold a snake all you feel is pure muscle contracting and coiling so while fighting it also wants the opponent to feel this strong muscular strength which it can use to 刁 Diāo (trick or entrap) the opponent because the opponent will begin to want to defend against the strength and ignore the soft/relaxed hand. So the snake is more of a 'soft' style but done with more of a 'hard' body.

Now to make a more complete fighter and if one had the time Dong Haichuan would also want to teach a student about a 3rd Zhang/ system of 'Fan Shen Zhang' (reversing body palm) which comes from the Kun trigram Qilin /unicorn system which represents Pure Yin and is a purely 'soft/rou' style of fighting with an extremely 'soft/rou' body. This animal's style of throwing is a great counter to the way the Dragon would attack and it's completely dissolving your own body to nullify the opponent and then immediately counter-throw. The 3 broken lines of the Kun trigram represent the major joints of the body being soft and fluid- wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck, chest, waist, hips, knee, ankles all without strength or hardness just loose relaxed and using a 'whipping' or flinging type of strength to throw. This system is in a sense all the counter-moves to the Dragon system so it's the perfect compliment to it.

It's not until you learn 3 of the systems that you can begin to see a complete picture. You don't even need to learn every technique of the other two just the 1 whole system like the Dragon and then a little of the other 2 in order to understand why they're different.


.

[Doc Stier]

I'm not sure on Sun Lu Tang's source of information or where he learned the Songs.

I don't think Sun Lu Tang actually knew the animal systems just the postures or what would be called the 8 mother palms.

What a hoot! That's very funny.

[D_Glenn]

What's really funny is that of course I personally don't know what Sun Lu Tang did, but that comment is based purely on what I've read, such as this article about Sun Lu Tang Bagua:

Gary Stier and his system of Shen Men Tao Ba Gua Zhang was featured in the Pa Kua Chang Newsletter, Volume 1, Number 4. In this article Gary explains how
his system views the eight mothre palms.

The Eight Trigram Palms of the Shen Men Tao System, founded by Dr. Lei Wing-wah in the late 1940's, are externally simple in their form and structure, yet internally profound in their energy dynamics. Dr. Lei taught that the logical development of the Ba Gua art gradually progressed over time from simple ideas and forms to more complex ones. With this thought in mind, the foundation of the Shen Men Tao practice method is a unified physical, mental, and spiritual expression of the primary eight trigrams, or ba gua, of the Book of Changes, the Yi Jing. It makes sense that an art named after these eight trigrams must have been greatly influenced by the
philosophical ideas they represent, and the physical attributes associated with them. By deliberately incorporating such connections in the form routines, the dynamic energy potential of the art flows with unbroken continuity through a three fold process of inner alchemy to outer expression. Beginning with meditation on the original spiritual revelations inherent in the eight trigrams, the mind is then able to formulate an inner relationship with the intended meaning of the trigrams and, lastly, unite the metaphysical process of spirit and mind with the physical postures of the body. The Shen Men Tao formula describing this unfoldment as follows: "Spirit forms the intention; the intention directs the energy; the energy shapes the form; the form reflects the Spirit. This completes one cycle from Spirit to Spirit, Eternity to Eternity. All things are essentially One in origin!" As a result of this process, the Shen Men Tao method teaches a single and unique palm shape or form as representative of each of the eight trigrams. A specific pattern of transitional movement leads the arm and hand into each of these palm shapes. As a group, the Eight Trigram Palms are sometimes referred to as the Mother Forms, or the Mother Palms, since each palm may be combined with any one of the other palms, 8X8, to produce the 64 Hexagram Palms, i.e. 64 uniquely different two handed forms or postures. Using these trigram and hexagram forms as a basic reference tool, any single or double handed posture
from any sequence of Ba Gua exercises may be related to the Yi Jing as a type of moving Daoism. From this perspective, most of the tactical palm change postures
presented as the Mother Palms by other styles or systems of Ba Gua are in fact two handed postures which are more logically representative of hexagrams rather than trigrams. If a two handed form posture is associated with each trigram, then an immediate problem arises when associating postures with hexagrams since we don't have four arms and four hands, making such associations difficult to logically justify! In the Shen Men Tao training, the individual or single handed trigram palms are first practiced separately while walking the circle. Their identifying transitional movements are used to repeat the posture as many times or for as long of a period of time as desired. Each palm is practiced equally on both sides, walking circles to both the right and left. Next, all of the eight different palms are linked together into two
separate form routines which represent the Earlier Heaven Arrangement of Fu Xi and the Later Heaven Arrangement of Wen Wang, respectively. Specialized
breath work may also be incorporated in the practice as the routines become familiar enough to allow mental attention to focus on additional considerations. Specifically, a Pre-Natal Reversed Breathing is practiced with the Earlier Heaven Form, and a Post-Natal Breathing is practiced with the Later Heaven Form. These Eight Trigram Forms are then followed by the 64 Hexagram Palms Form, which logically combines all of the previous material, while expanding the expression of the simple forms and footwork to a much greater degree of difficulty both athletically and energetically. All of the Shen Men Tao Ba Gua practice methods discussed in this article will be presented in great detail by the author in a forthcoming book and video tape, which will be available in 1996.
See the photos on the next page.


~ Pakua Journal 6-1

And like Yeniseri wrote: "From what I understand about Sun Lutang, the 'animal' flavours was never his cup of tea, as it were." Which jives with what you wrote above.



***

However, Sun Lu Tang does indeed demonstrate some of the 8 animal postures but with more of a Dragon flavor. Compare Sun's 'double headed snake coiling around the pillar' with the Yin style posture of the same name. Similar with the front hand low and pointing backward and the back hand is the front hand yet a bit different in the placement:



Almost all the Baguazhang Families have the 8 Animal postures, Upper, Middle, and Lower Basin Turning Postures, and most of the Dragon's 8 (neng) Method Turning Postures but this doesn't necessarily mean they also then have the whole fighting systems that go along with those Animal postures. I think there's maybe a misunderstanding when I say animal system opposed to just an animal posture and simply borrowing the flavor or form of the other animals.

If anyone can post some video of a whole Animal system that is not the Dragon or Chuanzhang (penetrating palms) that would tremendous. I would be forever grateful.


.

[Chris Fleming]

"From what I underatand about Sun Lutang, the 'animal' flavours was never his cup of tea"

All I know is that the bulk of the form sets in Sun style bagua that I learn are animal sets.

[Doc Stier]

And like Yeniseri wrote: "From what I understand about Sun Lutang, the 'animal' flavours was never his cup of tea, as it were." Which jives with what you wrote above.

No it doesn't!

[D_Glenn]

My bad.

I actually just sort of realized that Yeniseri's comment of: "From what I understand about Sun Lutang, the 'animal' flavours was never his cup of tea, as it were."

Is really one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... I'll explain later.


We know that Sun Lu Tang studied with Cheng Tinghua so I should rephrase my original statement, (which itself was responding to Ed's post so it was quoted completely out of context in the first place), so... without the much needed context, I'll start over from scratch and rephrase it here:

Sun Lu Tang could have only learned what Cheng Tinghua learned, which was the Dragon system, so I don't think Sun Lu Tang actually knew any of the other animal systems just their postures (what are called the 8 mother palms), or as I was saying to Ed, in terms of the Dragon's actual forms, they would be Dragon borrowing the strategy of the snake (shun shi), or bear (bei shen), or monkey (bao shi), or Qilin (fan shen) etc.


So back to Yeniseri, if you take the Animals out of Baguazhang you really don't have anything left, the only non-animal material is the 'Chuanzhang' (penetrating palms) and even these are essentially 1 method from each of the 8 animals, so to say that Sun Lu Tang did Baguazhang without the animals is ignorant at best.


.

[Doc Stier]

.....if you take the Animals out of Baguazhang you really don't have anything left, the only non-animal material is the 'Chuanzhang' (penetrating palms) and even these are essentially 1 method from each of the 8 animals, so to say that Sun Lu Tang did Baguazhang without the animals is ignorant at best.

Thank you for clarifying!

[yeniseri]

So back to Yeniseri, if you take the Animals out of Baguazhang you really don't have anything left, the only non-animal material is the 'Chuanzhang' (penetrating palms) and even these are essentially 1 method from each of the 8 animals, so to say that Sun Lu Tang did Baguazhang without the animals is ignorant at best.
.

I do not agree that if you take the animals out of Baquazhang, you have nothing left! If one seeks to name the jibengong and shenfa as "animals" then I guess that is different.
My position is that the animal naming of postures came later and was taken to be the "modus operandi" and everyone began jumping on the "Animal Bandwagon"!
It is postural jibengong and shenfa that is the raison d'etre of the art as opposed to what the majority has named "X Animals".

p.s. I have not looked at a baquazhang/quan book for some time so I will have to get back to you guys later to se what I am missing! My last instruction was over 20 years ago so I will have to backtrack this!

[edededed]

If anyone can post some video of a whole Animal system that is not the Dragon or Chuanzhang (penetrating palms) that would tremendous. I would be forever grateful.

Hardly anyone puts video of their entire systems on the Net, but it seems that Liu Bin's Cheng style has extensive animal routines (such as a 64 palm routine that has 8 for each animal, I think), while Cui Zhendong's Yin style also has extensive animal routines (long routines for each of eight animals?) as well.

Liu Bin's 8 animals are the same as Sun Lutang's 8 animals, but Cui Zhendong's animals are different. (The latter style is still very rare in the West so far, mostly you can find it in Shanghai.)

(Incidentally, I did find some video of a grandstudent of Men Baozhen on the Net recently (name escapes me at the moment)...)

[kreese]

I like the way he looks when he turns the circle. Like a lion or cheetah rounding a corner, eyes never moving from their target. Or an eagle circling in the sky waiting to strike.

[D_Glenn]

I do not agree that if you take the animals out of Baquazhang, you have nothing left! If one seeks to name the jibengong and shenfa as "animals" then I guess that is different.

The jibengong (basic fundamental drills/practices) in Cheng styles is all Dragon jibengong and it's very specific to it.

The other animal systems have their own specific jibengong practices which are in most cases very different from the Dragon's and help to develop a different shenfa. Each animal also turns a different diameter of circle which is specific to it and could be considered part of it's jibengong.

.

[mixjourneyman]

Incidentally, Zhang Zhaodong's system is comprised of animal forms, but they mimic xingyi animal ideas instead of bagua animal ideas. Just thought it might be worthy of mention.

[yeniseri]

I understand the symbolism of "dragon" as undulating, continuously moving, or snake, whereby when one touches the head, the 'tail' swings into action, etc but that is the extent of the animal allegory/symbolism for me! Not to deny anyone's acceptance of their animals but regardless of what you train, as long as the representation is there in usage.
A few people have told me that I have been doing baquazhang/quan neigong too long and hence, have a limited view of what baquazhang (animals) is about but that is good feedback.

How do we reconcile (I personally have no need to) those that use the trigrams as a "true" representation of baqua as opposed to the 8 Animals, or can we use (at least, those that do-I am aware of only 1 individual) both the Animals figuratively and the 8 Trigrams?n Just observing!