internal before external is a waste of time?

[bailewen]

I was going to post from a slightly different angle but, what the heck. . .

I think what you (Ed) are alluding to is Bajiquan's infamous "grinding" step. It's completely irrelevant without context. We don't "turn on the ball off the foot" as some sort of matter of course. There are only certain specific moves that use the grinding step. There are other moves where you have to turn on the heel. I wasn't going to post earlier because my view is already fairly well represented on the thread. Heel/ball really depends on what you're doing. As was mentioned earlier, turning on the ball for a reverse punch moves your COG away from the target by 2 or 3 inches so it completely robs you of power and penetration. OTOH, if we're not talking about a pivot so much as driving off the ball of the foot and allowing the heel to come up off the ground (like a classic boxer's straight right) then you get your penetration back. In keeping with more typical CMA footwork where you want to stay more planted, let's look at a punch being fired off 90 degrees from a bow stance：

In a punch like that, you're better off turning in the ball because what you need it not "forward" drive. That punch is driving by rotational power. In other moves, like the rear hand palm strike that gets it's power largely from the transition between a roughly 6/4 half horse stance at the beggining into a forward bow at the end...you definitely should turn on the heel or, again, you rob power from the strike.

Let's move to a move everyone knows and that sort of brought up the issue, Brush Knee Twist Step. It's gonna depend on what you are doing. Do you need the extra reach or not? Are you striking or throwing? If you are using it as an arm bar or a throw, the rotation on the ball makes more sense because what you need is rotation, not forward drive. If you are using the palm as a finger jab to the eyes then neither power nor rotation is that important. I'd say rotation slightly more important because you might want more lateral power on the lower hand to pull the persons lead arm across their body.

All these tiny considerations lead me to my final point, which was originally my initial point: This issue is just counting how many angels fit on a pinhead. It's a fairly pointless and counterproductive issue to get caught up in. It's worth noting but not a good idea to fix to statically in training. You should allow your footwork to adjust to your needs at the time and not try to force the body to match the feet. There's this platonic ideal a lot of people have about footwork where they thing it drives everything. Yes and no. It's critically important but the feet should be in service of the body. They should move wherever they need to to get the job done. If you want your gongfu to actually be of any practical use then your footwork is ultimately going to contain tons of little shuffling steps and minor adjustments to get the job done. Sometimes you may actually need to step away from the opponent during your strike. Maybe he's shooting forward to jam your attack and you need an extra inch or to to get better power. Suddenly "wrong" is "right".

I like to look at what effect different kinds of footwork has but really try to stay far away from any hard and fast rules about it.

[bailewen]

Someone may argue that if you turn your heel, you may have few more inches of extra reach. IMO, the distance between you and your opponent depends on your front foot position and not your back foot position. In the following clip, as long as I land my right foot behind my left foot, my ability to reach to my opponent will stay unchange.

I honestly can's see how that combination makes any sense as a punch. Is it a grab and sweep or a kick and punch combination?

[johnwang]

I honestly can's see how that combination makes any sense as a punch. Is it a grab and sweep or a kick and punch combination?

It's a right leg back spring motion.I just borrow this clip to show that the distance between you and your opponent is hardly defined by your back leg.

[bailewen]

Your assumption is, IMO, faulty.

Stand in the position at the end of the clip you just posted. Your reach is also effected by the depth of your stance. If you move your rear leg farther away from your front leg, your first will not reach as far.

1. Stand in a very high bow stance, like only about 2 feet long and position yourself so that your fist is touching the wall in front of you.

2. Now move your rear leg back. Keep your front foot in place. Only move your rear foot. Keep moving it back until you are as long and deep of a stance as is comfortable.

Your fist will no longer reach the wall. When your feet are together, your whole arm can reach way out past your knees. When you are in a deep bow stance, only your fist and part of your forearm can reach past your front knee.

[johnwang]

Your assumption is, IMO, faulty.

Stand in the position at the end of the clip you just posted. Your reach is also effected by the depth of your stance. If you move your rear leg farther away from your front leg, your first will not reach as far.

1. Stand in a very high bow stance, like only about 2 feet long and position yourself so that your fist is touching the wall in front of you.

2. Now move your rear leg back. Keep your front foot in place. Only move your rear foot. Keep moving it back until you are as long and deep of a stance as is comfortable.

Your fist will no longer reach the wall. When your feet are together, your whole arm can reach way out past your knees. When you are in a deep bow stance, only your fist and part of your forearm can reach past your front knee.

This will be an interesting test.

You forget the longfist guideline that from the top of your head to your chest, waist, hip, upper leg, and low leg should be in a straight line. The closer that your back foot land behind your front foot, the larger angle that your body is to the ground. The farther that your back foot lands behind your front foot, the smaller angle that your body is to the groung.

[bailewen]

You forget the longfist guideline that from the top of your head to your chest, waist, hip, upper leg, and low leg should be in a straight line.

Interesting point. I didn't "forget" this guidline. I have just never trained longfist. I can see how if you lean forward into the punch as your stance gets longer that makes up for the reach lost by moving the foot back.

I suppose my point is only valid for when you are remaining vertical for your punch. The kind of punching described by this longfist rule seems to give up power in exchange for range. Maybe the power is the same but it's certainly generated differently. If you move the rear foot back like that when you punch then you get rotational power around the hips. The bottom moves back to drive the top forward. But then you lose the power of shifting the entire body-weight forward into the strike. IMO, you can only generate "whipping" power but not "kao" power with this method. I think this is why there is no punch like this in Baji. The only reverse punch I have seen in Baji is one where you first plant one leg and then drive forward off of that leg. There are no Baji punches where the foot travels in the opposite direction from the hand. It really seems like a movement more suited to throwing. (top moves forward,; bottom moves back)

[cdobe]

I have trained both methods - turning on the heel and on the ball of the foot - in different branches of Wu style. I can make good use of both of them. The ball of the foot method feels like grinding into the ground and propelling yourself forward, the heel method unifies the side of the body of the back foot nicely. People who haven't trained both methods can not really comment which one is better. The other method always feels awkward in comparison. You are not stuck with the heel method and you are certainly not moving backwards with the forefoot method.
BTW, I've just tried the SC cracking throw. IT DOESN'T WORK !!!

[bailewen]

Well I have trained both ways as well and that's why my initial post on the thread was that I think it's a bit of pointless minutiae. I use both kinds of pivots depending on what I am doing and try not to think about it too much. I train certain moves one way and others the other way but that's all for solo practice. When the rubber hits the road, the feet go where they are needed.

[taiwandeutscher]

Same here, in different Yang lineages, different turning points.
Maybe elder people and yangsheng folks are better off with turn-over-heel, for stability in shoulder width, otherwise I prefer tunr-on-toes in narrower longer stances.

[Doc Stier]

The Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan makes use of both pivoting methods in fighting applications, and both methods are present in all of the form sets as well.

When turning around to face the opposite direction from a stationary position, without taking steps to do so, pivoting on the ball of the foot generally works best. It results in a shorter, empty stance facing the new direction, which allows a rapid withdrawal of and/or lifting of the empty front leg and foot for fast kicks or for quick steps in any direction.

Pivoting on the heel generally works best when moving forward in any direction as it allows rotation of the front foot to either side while fully weighted. Thus, a fighter can take fast lateral steps forward at any angle without need of first shifting the body weight backward prior to pivoting the front foot.

[johnwang]

The only reverse punch I have seen in Baji is one where you first plant one leg and then drive forward off of that leg.

I like the Baji way of throwing the reverse punch too. There are different between the Longfist way of reverse punch and Baji way of reverse punch.

Baji way:

- Put both hand on your right waist (maximum waist twisting).
- Move in your left foot.
- Turn your body, land you left foot, straight your right punch all at the same time.

Your punch is like a grenade that explose right at your left foot landing.

Longfist way:

- Only put right hand on your right wrist
- Left hand start to grab from 45 degree from your right (not as much waist twisting as the Baji way).
- Step in left foot and land on 4-6 stance (40% weight forward, 60% weight back).
- Start to twist waist, straight back leg, pivoit on the toe (or heel), and finish the right hand punch.

Since the left foot land before the punch and not during the punch, it doesn't give the explosive Fajin as the Baji way does.

[johnwang]

It seems to me that to turn on your toe will give you time to decide whether you want to commit your Fajin or not. The moment that you trun on your heel, you have made 100% commitment and there is no turning back. Just like the Baji reverse punch method, the moment that you move your leg forward, there is no turning back because you plain to have that explosion when your foot land.

Sorry to lead this thread outside of it's path. I real enjoy this discussion. It makes me to think something more deeper than before.

[D_Glenn]

what i don't see, overtly at least, is the vertical spinal wave. i think that can certainly be integrated into those moves, but lots of people don't. and, i suspect john could do that, if he wanted to.

I wonder if you actually read the thread? Because John basically said that he tried it once, didn't like it, and never did it again. So how could he do something he's admittedly never trained? And on a mere whim none the less?

Your comment remind me a senior longfist brother that I had a long time ago (he was our longfist club president). His form was very pleasent to watch because he loved to express his Shenfa that you have described. He was so much in Shenfa that he intentionally slow down a move just to show his "one part of his body pulling another part of his body". I tried to do that in my SC cucumber vine posture, I soon found out that "using part of my body to pull another part of my body" is not only too slow, sometime it's over commit and hard to change in the middle of the Shenfa. After that, I gave up that approach.

One day I tried to use my body spin to pull my waist, use my waist to pull my upper leg, and use my upper leg to pull my lower leg for my foot sweep, it feels good because I can feel the body connection. Until one day when I used that on my opponent, my opponent lifted his leg and my sweep went under it and I almost swept myself down to the ground. After that day, I went back to the basic training that I only sweep below my wiast and ignore my fancy Shenfa.

I had a Shenfa discussion with mantis master Brendan Lai. He could vibrate his body like a mantis moving in the wind. It was very pleasent to watch. He only demonstrated his Shenfa in his slow movement. When he demonstrated his speed move, he ignored his Shenfa.

I've met John Wang, felt his superb Shuai Jiao skills, and I feel that the knowledge and experiences he has are invaluable. You can't put a price on the Shuai Jiao skills ingrained in his body and mind, especially the 'counter-moves'. However there is not any nice way to say but the truth of the matter is that the strength and power manifested in his body is no comparison to some of the people who have spent years ingraining the 'shen fa' (torso methods of 波浪勁 'Bolang Jin' and 翻浪勁 'Fanlang Jin').

Now understand that I'm not trying to change John's mind in any way. My only interests are in the conservation of the traditional Chinese martial arts and I hope these threads lead to the next generation going out and seeking the skills and methods that are missing and help to ensure that they're not lost forever from the traditional styles.


.

[Daniel]

My only interests are in the conservation of the traditional Chinese martial arts and I hope these threads lead to the next generation going out and seeking the skills and methods that are missing and help to ensure that they're not lost forever from the traditional styles.

+hen duo.

Thank you for reminding me. I needed that.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[johnwang]

I hope these threads lead to the next generation going out and seeking the skills and methods that are missing and help to ensure that they're not lost forever from the traditional styles.

That's an excellent goal to achieve and I admire that from the bottom of my heart. If I can preserve a small piece of my TCMA knowledge, you also preserve a peice of your TCMA knowledge, our futue generation will still have some hope.

I'm not trying to change John's mind in any way.

As I have admitted to Interloper many times in this forum that Shenfa, Fajin, are not what my interest at this point of my life. If I can do a bit better job in my kick, punch, lock, throw integration before the end of my life, I'll be much happier. I'll let you and others to pass down those knowledge in Shenfa and Fajin training methods to the future generation.

what does "internal" mean to you;

I thought you already knew my answer before you even asked me this question.