Bao wrote:There are many different versions, depends on who you want to listen to. If you ask Zhaobao people, they would say that their style is the original and oldest tai chi.
Finny wrote:While I understand what you say - it's my impression that the Chen line of reasoning would be far more commonly accepted, with the notion of Zhaobao as a side branch.
“From your posts over the years it seems like you believe Yang style is the original?
GrahamB wrote:It's interesting that there is no evidence that Yang Lu Chan had ever been to Chen village.
The key players in the creation of taijiquan in beijing in the 1850s seem to be the Wu brothers.
Bao wrote:
It would be interesting if Wu Yuxiang had made up all of Yang Luchan's background and if only Wu had visited Chenjiagou and Zhaobao. But does it seem reasonable that he would make it up? If so, for what reason?
Bao wrote:
If he had really been Chan Changxing's servant (which was invented in a fiction novel), there would certainly have been a record in the Chen family history/genealogy.
Finny wrote:Does that mean that there is a record which states the name of Chen Changxin's servant? If it is not YLC what does that mean? I know you say that story was invented in a fiction (wuxia?) novel - I always thought that the oral history of Yang style said YLC was a guest/servant/something? If that's not the Yang style history, what is?
Finny wrote:Your speculation makes sense to me. I'm curious though - if the YLC as servant/student story is from a fictional novel, what do the Yang family give as the history of the style?
Doc Stier wrote:All of these hypothetical narratives are what my teacher collectively referred to as 'Wild History'. They are very interesting and intriguing possibilities, yet virtually impossible to validate more than a century after the events in question. But still, what if...?
Finny wrote:So I'm not a taiji guy, but I've always had an interest and so have read a bit through the years (including a couple of decades here)
It seems to me that I've heard effectively two (or three) different theories or versions of TJQ history, and I'm curious as to whether my impression is accurate, and what the opinions of folks here are.
It seems to me that the two competing theories are:
1. That the Chen family created TJQ, taught YLC, who then popularised it in Beijing. Not sure where/when Zhaobao fits into this theory - an early parallel branch?
2. That YLC developed his original TJQ by adding some things picked up from the Chen family - Yang style as 'original' TJQ.
Is that an accurate understanding of the history of TJQ?
yeniseri wrote:
1. What we know about taijiquan today comes from the Yang variant (Luchan) ONLY because he reached the Northern capital first before Chenjiagou family (Chen style)
2. Chen Family art was the original. In the 1950s and before many people had no idea of what we called taiji, was because it was a village folk heirloom. Ynag changed that on all levels.
3. Through Yang Luchan's Beijing journey, his version became the norm and therefore more popular and because of that, Chen Family art was seen as the usurper!
4. Zhaobao style/variation is actaully a Chen template so called because of Zhaobao town is close to Chen village where a Chen family married into the village and that art merged with a similar folk system hence the changes reflecting that level and degree of synthesis.
5 Yang LuChan was taught by a Chen family member. We will never know why Yang chenged the external points of Chen art at that time! Sal Cannizaro! a sometime contributor to this forum, has shown that Chen style borrowed elements/postures from Taizuchangquan (along with a stated Li Family ) so why not Yang Luchan integrating elements from Hongquan to solidify his 'skill' at that period of history!
The information is out there and we just have to separate the wheat from the chaff! One lucky thing I learned from my teacher was the distinction between 'styles' and that is an excellent objective part of instruction in the assessment criteria for ascertain the veracity of a point of view. Anyone looking at Zhaobao will see a Chen style overlay with some very interesting postural characteristics (e.g. as if the whole routine was done on a "Dragon on Ground" motif (hugging the ground seen in the duration of the form) keeping in mind that an early part of Yang training involved similar posture under a low table and exiting and raising oneslef without falling over!
Finny wrote:I find it really interesting to examine, and I guess what intrigues me about TJQ and also BGZ history is that for such recent events, we still have such sparse information.
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