Trump Will be President

[Steve James]

Mike, two points: 1) Chinese universities are not better, and I wold be the last to say that being educated in China is better. My point was, in fact, they come here for science education. Let's not get into why some people say that the educational system here sucks. But, # 2, however, is that, in spite of our great universities, we don't produce nearly as many scientists, engineers, or mathematicians as the PRC or India. The ratio is something like 300 to 1. Then, to top it off, US universities have to hire loads of Asians to teach math and science. Ask anyone who's actually had to study science in the states. So, it's not a question of how good the Chinese scientists are. (Though, in on other threads, the argument is that they are technically equal or more advanced than we are). The question is why we don't produce enough scientists and mathematicians to teach our own students. And, it's no one's fault but those who don't get the education necessary.

This is in the context of people arguing that China will fail because of technology. However, technology and robotics will have the same effect on Chinese industry as it has on ours: i.e., fewer workers, higher productivity. If you keep buying Chinese, there'll be little change. And, the lack of scientists here has more to do with politics and beliefs than with the dumbing down of education or something else holding people back.

Oh, and don't forget that they come because of the opportunity. The less skilled are more numerous and are left. They call it a brain drain.

[willie]

[Michael]

The question is why we don't produce enough scientists and mathematicians to teach our own students. And, it's no one's fault but those who don't get the education necessary.

That's a problem and the USA is very lucky to benefit from international brain drain.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

I'm not sure what Steve is talking about, so perhaps he can clarify. I had to work in a building at my last university alongside the math dept. All the professors and most of the TAs were white and mostly American. At my current school, a quick scan of the professors in the math department shows a long list of white dudes (and fortunately, a few dudettes). That was also the case at my undergrad institution. In fact, that was also the case at my JC. So, is there some weird phenomenon where JCs and R1 schools don't adhere to what you are describing, Steve? Now, all of these schools did have tons of foreign students--largely Chinese and Middle Easterners who were rich. The reason they were there as far as the admin was concerned? Cash cows. That's it. People (and the legislature) don't want to pay for higher ed anymore, so money has to come from other sources.

[Steve James]

Ian, I work at a STEM college. For the last ten years, I've been on committees and national initiatives to increase the number of STEM graduates and STEM teachers.
Here's the issue. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-ameri ... ca-n378521

http://encorps.org/about/stem-crisis/

Anyway, the problem is still severe, but it's getting better. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/ ... nitiatives

And, with regards to this discussion: http://www.ed.gov/sites/default/files/s ... raphic.jpg


Yes, we can go backwards, deemphasize science and emphasize manufacturing jobs. And, I know that more stem jobs will be created and students enrolled in the disciplines in the next years. But, it's only because people have been working on it for the last decade. Otoh, it may be fortunate. One can never tell who will be a Haber and who will be an Einstein.

[grzegorz]

I think a Westerner saying Chinese scientists are not objective is odd. I mean even here we have scientists who are Mormons and bible thumpers and climate change deniers but I do not believe it means that don't know how to collect data or use the scientific method.

Yes, it is odd to me that some scientists would have certain beliefs but perhaps that is how they were raised and doesn't reflect on their work.

Accountants are odd too but probably good at what they do otherwise they have to find other line of work.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Ian, I work at a STEM college. For the last ten years, I've been on committees and national initiatives to increase the number of STEM graduates and STEM teachers.
Here's the issue. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-ameri ... ca-n378521

http://encorps.org/about/stem-crisis/

Anyway, the problem is still severe, but it's getting better. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/ ... nitiatives

And, with regards to this discussion: http://www.ed.gov/sites/default/files/s ... raphic.jpg


Yes, we can go backwards, deemphasize science and emphasize manufacturing jobs. And, I know that more stem jobs will be created and students enrolled in the disciplines in the next years. But, it's only because people have been working on it for the last decade. Otoh, it may be fortunate. One can never tell who will be a Haber and who will be an Einstein.

I guess I wasn't clear. I thought I recognized the foreign student situation quite succinctly in my post. I was asking you about this:

Then, to top it off, US universities have to hire loads of Asians to teach math and science.

Your first link talks about foreign students, which I also see as an apparent trend. Your second link talks about shortages of pre-higher ed teachers in STEM fields, and how universities are responding. So, none of that seems to back up the idea that Chinese or other foreign nationals are taking over the teaching fields in higher ed. I just pointed out that it didn't seem to be the case at any of the schools I attended/attend. Anyway, I'm not in a STEM field, but I didn't think you were, either. It would be nice if history could get in on some of that funding, though.

[Steve James]

Your second link talks about shortages of pre-higher ed teachers in STEM fields, and how universities are responding. So, none of that seems to back up the idea that Chinese or other foreign nationals are taking over the teaching fields in higher ed.

I didn't say that anyone is taking over. I said that there is a shortage of US citizens studying stem disciplines. I'm not questioning or denying your experience. I'm telling you what mine is in this field and why we are actively encouraging US students to study these disciplines. The shortage of students automatically equates to a shortage of teachers. And, you said that the teachers you mentioned were white, were they all native-born US citizens. I don't know about your uni, but at ours there are also a bunch of teachers from Europe.

At any rate, my economic point is simply that we need more. I couldn't care less about the ethnic aspect. In fact, I'm happy that individuals come here to study. They often stay, which as Mike points out is a win for us and a brain drain on their countries of origin. At any rate, even if you think the situation is fine, I would warn against complacency. That's the main reason this discussion is on a Trump thread.

[willie]

The reason why is because a high paying job in those fields is no longer assured.
At first it was just the no skill labor jobs that went to China, then more and more advanced. Now the engineering jobs are going too.
So blame the last 3 generations of presidents for not addressing the real issues.

[Bill]

[Steve James]

At first it was just the no skill labor jobs that went to China,

Nope, it was that the companies buy from China because of container shipping (which enables a Walmart). The claim that they"dump" their cheap products on it is true in the sense that their workers are paid so little. Sure, it's possible to raise the price of all goods manufactured in China. It would also help to raise the wages of those who are already working here, too. And, of course, if Americans bought American-made goods.

then more and more advanced. Now the engineering jobs are going too.

Not true at all, the engineering and science jobs are not going anywhere. The best training is here. We are not producing enough of them. And the only initiatives to reverse that trend have come from the last administration. The anti-science anti-intellectual and anti-college atmosphere has not helped and will not. Let's see if the education goals stay the same in the next administration.

This a problem.

[Steve James]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98

[willie]

then more and more advanced. Now the engineering jobs are going too.

Not true at all, the engineering and science jobs are not going anywhere. The best training is here. We are not producing enough of them. And the only initiatives to reverse that trend have come from the last administration. The anti-science anti-intellectual and anti-college atmosphere has not helped and will not. Let's see if the education goals stay the same in the next administration.
]

Unfortunately James you are once again uninformed.
I have been self employed for over 25 years, All my colleges are business owners.
All of us have watched this trend. You don't know what you are talking about at all.
Just to name one sector, Several of my clients were plastic injection mold makers, once the Chinese started getting the orders
and making a lot of money, They also captured the engineering sector of mold making as well.
Just to make you aware, because your not edjucated enough to comprehend the complexities, plastic injection mold design is one of the higher level engineering jobs.
you should just admit your error, apologize and stop spreading false flag messages.

[Steve James]

I teach at a college that trains people in the engineering disciplines. I know a bit about the problem. But, my error would be? That Chinese students don't come here to study engineering? That our students are woefully behind in the sciences and math? Shucks many of our students can't get by MAT 1275 (beginning calculus), and that's why they don't continue in the sciences. If you know more about this than I do, go ahead.

you should just admit your error, apologize and stop spreading false flag messages.

The false flag is what? Never mind. We're doing great in math, and even English composition if you say so. But, I'd say the false flag will be the excuses that people give for the failures. We ain't doing too well in English composition even, but let's see if Trump fixes that.

And, it's naive to think that greed and profit have nothing to do with the problem. I don't know anything about plastic injection molding, but I'll bet it's also cheaper to do elsewhere. Does or did your shop have a union? Or is it a "right to work" (:)) state? Does mechanization have anything to do with the loss of jobs in your industry? Would you suggest de-mechanization?

Actually, my main point is that the situation for different industries varies by region, availability and other factors. For example, there may be shortage of oil drilling engineers in North Dakota because it's North Dakota. Otoh, there may be a surplus of them in Massachusetts. It's also true that if there's a choice between a biomedical machine constructed in the US and one constructed in China, the hospital may choose the cheaper alternative. The cost, however, will be transferred to the patient. Anyway, that's a serious discussion for somewhere else.

[willie]

Mr James, The factors? We got sold out.
Why should someone invest all that money in a career that is going over sea's? AS I HAD SAID!!!
Wouldn't it be smarter for Americans just to become a doctor?
If you don't believe what i have to say then This is me engineering a part.