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Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:58 amby origami_itto
I've been watching the Chinese Sci-Fi drama Three Body (the live action version)
I've noticed that the translations seem to use different tense than I would expect in english.
For example, the episode 2 summary: "Wang attended a conference held by The Frontier of Science. Later, he found a series of mysterious numbers appeared on his pictures."
In English we'd expect present or future tense, since we're going to be watching it. "Wang attends a conference, he finds a series of numbers"
In a scene in the latest episode a woman who is a scientist currently says "I had spent half my life doing science" where in English normally I'd expect "I have spent half my life"
Is this a common way of speaking about events in Chinese culture?
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:59 amby everything
There isn’t tense / conjugation of verbs in Chinese grammar
So there aren’t really the equivalents to what you describe
E.g., “had” versus “have” and so on.
Probably the intern on the project did the translation, lol
Very roughly speaking you can think of
Latin languages as verbose
Chinese as concise
English somewhere in the middle (with super weird spellings).
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:15 amby windwalker
In the US mainly interact within the Chinese culture here...most if not all of my life.
The tense, syntax also different..
Chat AI:
The Chinese and English languages have some notable differences in terms of tense usage. Here are a few key points to consider:
Grammatical Structure:
English has a more elaborate tense system compared to Chinese. English uses auxiliary verbs (e.g., "is," "was," "will be") to indicate different tenses, while Chinese often relies on context, adverbs, and particles to express time reference.
English has a clear distinction between present, past, and future tenses, while Chinese tends to have a more relative and context-dependent understanding of time.
Verb Conjugation:
English verbs undergo inflectional changes to indicate different tenses. For example, "walk" becomes "walked" in the past tense. Chinese, on the other hand, generally uses the same verb form regardless of tense. Instead, time references are often conveyed through adverbs or context.
Time Adverbs and Context:
Chinese commonly uses time adverbs and adverbial phrases to specify the temporal aspect of an action.
These adverbs indicate when an action occurred, such as "昨天" (zuótiān, yesterday), "现在" (xiànzài, now), or "明天" (míngtiān, tomorrow).
English also uses time adverbs, but they are often combined with specific verb forms to indicate the tense. For example, "I will go tomorrow" or "I went yesterday."
Aspectual Differences:
Both languages have different ways to express aspectual information (e.g., continuous, perfective), which further affects how events are described.
English often uses auxiliary verbs (e.g., "is," "have been") to convey aspects, while Chinese relies on different particles, adverbs, and contextual cues.
It's important to note that these are general differences, and there can be exceptions and variations in both languages.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:48 amby monkeymind
It has probably been translated by a non-native English speaker. I have been teaching English to native Chinese speakers for a long time and inaccuracies like this are common (even at a high level of proficiency). The chat AI explanation posted by windwalker gives a decent breakdown. From my experience, it seems to have a lot to do with Chinese verbs never changing form. The time at which something occurred is understood via aspect markers, grammatical constructions or context. For the most part, the meaning is still decipherable, but it sounds weird to a native speaker.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:23 amby vadaga
I wouldnt chalk it up too much to linguistic/cultural differences, it's probably just cheap/poor translation.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:02 amby Giles
Well, one of the main points of failure in a cheap/poor translation is when it stumbles over linguistic and cultural differences that the translator doesn't understand (or that the AI doesn't
'understand'). Speaking as a professional translator
Apart from that, I haven't seen the film series yet but I read the trilogy a few years back and found it very interesting. The aliens and the alien/human interactions (and the whole Dark Wood theory) seemingly being predicated to a great extent on the author's experience of history and culture in the PRC, especially the Cultural Revolution. Pretty bleak in some ways, but that doesn't mean he is 'wrong'. Just as the nature of the aliens in Ted Chiang's novella "Story of your Life" and the film adaptation "Arrival" is not 'right' or 'wrong' either.
The concept of "intelligent aliens" is probably modern humanity's greatest Rorschach Ink-Blot Test: as a projective surface for our own various beliefs, fears, desires etc.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:07 amby origami_itto
Giles wrote:Well, one of the main points of failure in a cheap/poor translation is when it stumbles over linguistic and cultural differences that the translator doesn't understand (or that the AI doesn't
'understand'). Speaking as a professional translator
Apart from that, I haven't seen the film series yet but I read the trilogy a few years back and found it very interesting. The aliens and the alien/human interactions (and the whole Dark Wood theory) seemingly being predicated to a great extent on the author's experience of history and culture in the PRC, especially the Cultural Revolution. Pretty bleak in some ways, but that doesn't mean he is 'wrong'. Just as the nature of the aliens in Ted Chiang's novella "Story of your Life" and the film adaptation "Arrival" is not 'right' or 'wrong' either.
The concept of "intelligent aliens" is probably modern humanity's greatest Rorschach Ink-Blot Test: as a projective surface for our own various beliefs, fears, desires etc.
Okay so last night's epsiode number 22, an english speaking person said, in english "We captured the satellite as soon as possible and began our investigations."
And I'll be honest... I lose track of wtf is going on with this a lot so I am not sure if they actually have the satellite or not at this point. I know it's still broadcasting the game and they're about to fry it. So confusing.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:17 amby everything
On a tangent, I'm not an expert, but Chinese doesn't use articles like "a/an/the", either. Plural forms of words are mainly the same as singular. Like in many languages, the subject might be implied.
So, proper "Chingrish" in the translation would be more like:
- "capture satellite as soon as possible. begin investigation" [possibly a context word or context that would indicate the tense, the "we", the plural]
you'd have to infer the "missing" pieces from context clues (that others mentioned here).
you kind of have to admire the "conciseness". can make other languages seem way too flowery/verbose. e.g., verb conjugation, gender for objects and their articles, "past participle", etc. wtf. way too complicated. just get to the point.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:42 amby Doc Stier
Wow! Overthink things much? Good grief!
How well do most non-Chinese speak any dialect of Chinese language or write anything in Chinese characters without the use of Google Translate or some other translation app? I would bet not very well in both cases.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:00 amby origami_itto
Doc Stier wrote:Wow! Overthink things much? Good grief!
How well do most non-Chinese speak any dialect of Chinese language or write anything in Chinese characters without the use of Google Translate or some other translation app? I would bet not very well in both cases.
I find it interesting. The strangeness seems to stick across different databases and different groups providing subtitle translations.
Intellectual curiosity is not a bad thing, Sifu.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:04 amby Steve James
The problem lies in the way people think more than the language. Word order can be the opposite of the way English-speakers think. There are also things that can't be translated from English to Chinese or Spanish literally. Sometimes it's because the concept doesn't exist; more often because the same word has more than one concept. And, the concept/meaning depends on the context. Google translate can only go by the words, not what the writer wants to say. Not to mention that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Afa movies, dubs usually aren't so accurate if you know the original language. Don't expect accuracy.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:01 amby everything
It’s interesting because the human brain is interesting.
Japanese doesn’t use SVO grammar. Seems difficult.
Latin languages seem to place adjectives behind nouns.
ChatGPT “reads” simultaneously L to R and R to L.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:36 amby everything
Steve James wrote:
Afa movies, dubs usually aren't so accurate if you know the original language. Don't expect accuracy.
Even English language with English subtitles often doesn't match. I guess the actors may have deviated slightly during filming and the subtitles maybe used the original script, not sure. (I always have subtitles turned on)
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:01 pmby Bhassler
A writer friend of mine was hired to work on the Japanese version of American Ninja Warrior (no idea which came first, or what it was called in Japanese). They took the original Japanese commentary, had it translated, then had the writers re-write it for an American audience. THEN, they translated that back into Japanese and had it dubbed into the original video, and had the English version run in subtitles.
All of which is to say, anything you see may be unclear language differences, or it may be mistakes by lowly paid interns, or it may be shockingly elaborate attempts to convey the right "feel" for the product as determined by the director and/or studio.
Re: Chinese Tense and the three body problem
Posted:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:05 amby origami_itto
"If anything happens, took care of my children. "
Also confirmed they did not have the satellite when the Caucasian actor speaking English (but who may have been some flavor of Eastern European or another) said "We captured the satellite as soon as possible and began our investigations." Like the next scene was the satellite zooming around and somebody saying "we're closing in on it"