Time For Bonnie Scotland to Fuck Off?

[Mr_Wood]

part two.... The Rebellion...

https://www.facebook.com/wearethefortyfive

[Dajenarit]

They blew it on the the currency question.. I met quite a few Yes folk who voted No simply because they had no clue as to what was going to happen with £.

I would of voted the same way in those circumstances. You can always try again for independence later down the road if it becomes necessary.

[Michael]

They blew it on the the currency question.. I met quite a few Yes folk who voted No simply because they had no clue as to what was going to happen with £.

I would of voted the same way in those circumstances. You can always try again for independence later down the road if it becomes necessary.

If memory serves, the Quebecois only got one shot at it. Perhaps those who prompted the vote would consider it too risky to put pressure into a situation that would further consolidate the majority voters of this election.

[Dajenarit]

Lol "You get one chance for independence guys....don't smeg it up"

Cuz you totally have to listen to the people your trying to gain independence from. People are funny....

[Andy_S]

Now is the moment. I sincerely hope that the Westminster and Holyrood politicians are prepared to be realistic and a little idealistic, rather than simply opportunistic.

[emptycloud]

Now is the moment. I sincerely hope that the Westminster and Holyrood politicians are prepared to be realistic and a little idealistic, rather than simply opportunistic.

Its a beautiful idea you have of politicians operating as anything other than career, power hungry, corporate slags. We live in a moneyocracy, the peon masses are hoodwinked left, right and centre by the pantomime of politics.

What we need is a cultural renaissance, an evolutionary jump, a paradigm shift in values...christ knows what you would call it, but it ain't gonna come from Westminster or Holyrood...

Rich

[RobP2]

Now is the moment. I sincerely hope that the Westminster and Holyrood politicians are prepared to be realistic and a little idealistic, rather than simply opportunistic.

Its a beautiful idea you have of politicians operating as anything other than career, power hungry, corporate slags. We live in a moneyocracy, the peon masses are hoodwinked left, right and centre by the pantomime of politics.

What we need is a cultural renaissance, an evolutionary jump, a paradigm shift in values...christ knows what you would call it, but it ain't gonna come from Westminster or Holyrood...

Rich

+100

[Andy_S]

RE: Above comments from Rob and Rich:
Hmmm.

In the UK we can boast:
A long-established democratic polity;
Accountable politicians;
Creaky but working institutions and rule of law;
The world's sixth-largest economy serving the world's 22nd largest population;
One of the most attractive destinations for migrants on earth; and
A recent situation in which a major chunk of the union can demand - and be granted by the powers that be! - a referendum on secession. This referendum is then carried out peacefully and democratically, with massive popular participation.

...and yet half the Brits I speak to, seem to think it is time for rebellion.

So:
Have today's Brits overindulged their native cynicism to the point where they believe their own whining?
Or are they just a surly bunch of whingers and snivellers?
Or are they bold and thoughtful Utopians who will not cease their revolu...er, grumbling...until they realize the ultimate human society?

Or is it me who is missing something that is absolutely smack-in-the-face central?

I would hesitantly (Andy_S prepares to duck) suggest that you lot don't realize how good you have got it compared to pretty any other historical era Britons have lived in heretofore., as well as to most other nations around the world.

I suppose I have one wee advantage and that is one of perspective:
I live in a country which has only recently (since 1997 - prior to which it was run by a pretty nasty pair of military dictatorships) won democratization. It is a nation which still suffers from an unaccountable big business class that lives beyond the rule of law; from a big and very, very intrusive government; and is still racked by political corruption. (And corruption here is the real deal: The term "cash trucking" was invented for a literal, not hyperbolic reason.)

I also live just south of probably the most totalitarian nation on earth and spend a lot of time analyzing it.

A final point. It is a quixotic aspect of polities that the more democratic they are, the more critical the people are of their leadership. There are societies on earth today where those who have written lines such as those above could expect to be monitored, tracked down, and receive a knock on their door at midnight.

[Dajenarit]

This really isn't my debate but I'll add respectfully...

People always make that same final point of yours Andy, when criticizing those who they feel criticize too much. But a democracy is supposed to allow more criticism. A Saudi Arabian or Chinese dissident criticizes their governments much less for the exact reason that they might be jailed, tortured or killed for doing so. It doesn't mean they don't want to. You're supposed to see more criticism of society when its actually allowed. That's the point. I'd think that a society was an odd 1984 style conformist hell hole if it didn't.

And honestly with all the extinction level shit going on in the world I think governmental criticism should be 100 times worse.

[Andy_S]

Daj:

RE: Democracy is supposed to allow more criticism
Well, that was exactly the point I was making in my last graf.

But this brings the danger of believing our own mutterings. (Hear something often enough, and it sinks in.) Let Britons not fool themselves - with their constant grumbling - that they are living in a state of injustice, poverty and/or disenfranchisement.

There are some dolts in the nation, such as Russell Brand (hardly a learned voice on governance, but such is the level of political discourse and celeb worship in the UK that people actually listen to him and he gets granted interviews on Newsnight) who call for a revolution! (In order, perhaps, to live out Che Guevara fantasies. But I digress.)

If people can suggest a better alternative to our system, fine, do it: There are plenty of channels for expression.

But historical experience suggests that many (most?) revolutions simply swap one tyranny for another. Thankfully, what happened in Jockland was not a rebellion, it was a referendum - one granted and implemented in a democratic, peaceful manner that is, IMHO, a credit to British politics.

FWIW, here is the way things COULD go. I just learned that - as of yesterday - one of my colleagues is facing arrest for writing an article critical of the South Korean president. This is an alarming precedent and would certainly not happen in the UK. (One reason being: We do not have enough gaol space.)

[emptycloud]

RE: Above comments from Rob and Rich:
Hmmm.

In the UK we can boast:
A long-established democratic polity;
Accountable politicians;
Creaky but working institutions and rule of law;
The world's sixth-largest economy serving the world's 22nd largest population;
One of the most attractive destinations for migrants on earth; and
A recent situation in which a major chunk of the union can demand - and be granted by the powers that be! - a referendum on secession. This referendum is then carried out peacefully and democratically, with massive popular participation.

...and yet half the Brits I speak to, seem to think it is time for rebellion.

So:
Have today's Brits overindulged their native cynicism to the point where they believe their own whining?
Or are they just a surly bunch of whingers and snivellers?
Or are they bold and thoughtful Utopians who will not cease their revolu...er, grumbling...until they realize the ultimate human society?

Or is it me who is missing something that is absolutely smack-in-the-face central?

I would hesitantly (Andy_S prepares to duck) suggest that you lot don't realize how good you have got it compared to pretty any other historical era Britons have lived in heretofore., as well as to most other nations around the world.

I suppose I have one wee advantage and that is one of perspective:
I live in a country which has only recently (since 1997 - prior to which it was run by a pretty nasty pair of military dictatorships) won democratization. It is a nation which still suffers from an unaccountable big business class that lives beyond the rule of law; from a big and very, very intrusive government; and is still racked by political corruption. (And corruption here is the real deal: The term "cash trucking" was invented for a literal, not hyperbolic reason.)

I also live just south of probably the most totalitarian nation on earth and spend a lot of time analyzing it.

A final point. It is a quixotic aspect of polities that the more democratic they are, the more critical the people are of their leadership. There are societies on earth today where those who have written lines such as those above could expect to be monitored, tracked down, and receive a knock on their door at midnight.

"now bend over and take a bloody good rodgering, you ungrateful little sod"....

I agree with much of your post Andy... its complex, the secret life of the parasite class is unfolding fast here in the UK and it ain't pretty... To a certain extent we have been bought off. Things are good, but under the surface they are putrid. Life is good but it is a pale shadow of potential.

Rich

[Dajenarit]

Things are good, but under the surface they are putrid. Life is good but it is a pale shadow of potential.

Exactly.

[Dajenarit]

You have to ask yourself who is life good for exactly? If you ignore the voices of people who feel disenfranchised then you end up with things like Occupy or an increase in calls for independence, at best. I don't understand the belief that millions of people are complaining to just complain in how they feel their lives are going and the lack of control in it. You're essentially calling people a bunch of deluded whiners because they feel they aren't being given enough democratic say so in a democracy, and that the criticisms aren't valid because they don't live in a politically regressive country like North Korea. I guess it comes down to whether or not you feel the criticisms of Westminster are legitimate or not. I personally feel even the best democracies have a long way to go. Speaking as an American, I notice people here somehow think that the democratic experiment is won and done and that its as perfect as its likely to be. Any criticism is chocked up to ungrateful whining or plain crazy and as a result the possibilities of making our democracies better for the people who actually would benefit from the improvements get shouted down. This is the land of opportunity after all (goes the logic) despite all the research, studies, statistics, and personal experience of a great many people saying that America and the world is more stratified and class/race divided than any other time besides the gilded age. I mean we live in a world where 85 people own as much as 3.5 billion and the fair majority live in Europe and America. If the people living in these countries don't speak up against the inequality then who else has the power to do so? Westminster and Washington isn't going to give a shit about what some poor living on a dollar a day African or Asian has to say about wealth distribution, if their own constituents/citizens can't take them to task and hold them accountable for the inequality in their own communities.


I mean how long do people have to wait for western governments to do something about the ecological collapse of the entire planet or the radioactive timebomb waiting to go off in our pointless weapon stocks and the drive for even more nuclear reactors even after Fukushima. Those are just 2 examples of letting the status quo take it sweet time in changing things being pretty insane as far as humanities survival goes. Those are the bigger extreme problems. Most of the complaints are a lot closer to home and pedestrian understably, but how long would you wait to speak out against tax money being used for profit-making wars and god knows what else at the expense of the health of your own communities. My neighborhood can't keep schools and afterschool programs funded properly but they have billions in war-making foreign aid easily available.

I hope for the best with your colleague, No one should be arrested for speaking their minds or trying to tell the truth, but journalists and whistleblowers are put on trial and sometimes convicted often enough in America too. Some even end up dead for there troubles, though people like to pretend it doesn't happen in the more industrialized "civilized" parts of the world. I won't speculate on Europe, but I know how truth-tellers are usually treated over here. On the whole its been a very bad decade for journalists all over the world as far as being censored and the more troubling, acts of state violence perpetuated against them.

The media collectively called for Snowden's ''trial'', conviction and in some cases execution. Bradley or I guess Chelsea Manning is going to spend the better part of his/her life behind bars. Plenty of journalists were fired and have had their lives ruined trying to tell the truth. Journalists, whistleblowers and general dissidents over here are actually pretty terrified of giving substantial hard hitting critiques of the government to the point that we have a yearly anthology of all the censored news stories going since the 80's. In the more developed parts of South America, you can still end up 'disappeared" for writing the wrong article about the wrong person, but to their credit South Americans are notoriously critical of all levels of power in their societies.

[Dajenarit]

It is a nation which still suffers from an unaccountable big business class that lives beyond the rule of law; from a big and very, very intrusive government; and is still racked by political corruption. (And corruption here is the real deal: The term "cash trucking" was invented for a literal, not hyperbolic reason.

You just described America and most of Europe my friend.

[emptycloud]

http://youtu.be/hBEJtwDXKPQ

was it St George Orwell who noted that we sleep well at night because violent men are prepared to do violent things in other countries on our behalf... out of context and badly recalled perhaps, but we do have an awful situation on our hands... what to do..?

don't worry - be happy

Rich