Deflecting a thousand catties with four taels

[origami_itto]

Or deflecting ONE cattle with one tail? With thirty teeth? I dunno. In any event, this is suprisingly similar to how Cheng Man Ching describes the concept of 4 ounces defeating 1000 pounds.

The bull is a great strong beast, and can be handled by one small person if they apply a small amount of energy to the right place (the ring in the nose).

Gives me a little bit of admiration for Australia, even.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fAfJe7uwbok

[DiaitaDoc]

This concept has always fascinated me.

I’ve heard the ring in the bull’s nose simile as well, and while I used to nod in appreciation at the image, I’m now of the opinion that it is a poor comparison.

The bull’s nose ring is an example of pain compliance, not of leverage.

If the principle of “4 ounces moving a thousand pounds” is meant to be about pain compliance, then I’d expect to see TaiJi practitioners applying more small joint locks, pressure points, and hair pulling. I do not generally see this, and in the cases where I have, there is vocal outcry and protest from the TaiJi community: “that’s not TaiJi”.

And I don’t disagree. Contrary to the Bull ring analogy, I think the 4 ounce principle really IS about leverage. I’m not saying pain compliance is completely useless or even absent from TaiJi, but that’s not where the skill of TaiJi comes from.

[windwalker]

The bull’s nose ring is an example of pain compliance, not of leverage.

If the principle of “4 ounces moving a thousand pounds” is meant to be about pain compliance, then I’d expect to see TaiJi practitioners applying more small joint locks, pressure points, and hair pulling. I do not generally see this, and in the cases where I have, there is vocal outcry and protest from the TaiJi community: “that’s not TaiJi”.

And I don’t disagree. Contrary to the Bull ring analogy, I think the 4 ounce principle really IS about leverage. I’m not saying pain compliance is completely useless or even absent from TaiJi, but that’s not where the skill of TaiJi comes from.

Or one could look at at as an example of mind....

"leading" the mind.
Obviously, it can not be about leverage...

In other examples using the same story, CMC made reference to the quality of the

string

and to what it was attached to...

A student asked about the meaning of 4 oz.
Professor replied:
" Indeed, 4 oz. can not deflect one thousand pounds.
But there is a key word--leading. ( Chinese word: Chan-1)
If a cow weighs one thousand pounds and a rope on the cow's nose weighs 4 oz., a boy can walk the cow with the rope.
But if the rope is on cow's leg, do you think the cow will go with the boy?
In practicing push-hands, it is for us to find out where is the cow's leg and where is the nose

Think of the leg as "body' , the nose as "mind" to understand what is being moved....

[origami_itto]

Is it pain compliance or capitalizing on reflexive responses? Even if you can take the pain, without being prepared and expecting it, a sudden sharp pain or threat of pain from the right direction will prompt that action from the victim themselves. Or unbalancing or threatening to unbalance. Chris Marshall and I did this to each other at different times in the video I posted in the Facebook TBMAG Group from the most recent retreat.

I don't believe any of this can be boiled down to just one thing and a lot of misunderstand comes from trying to collapse it down to a singular concept.

Another more directly external way to look at it is this:

When they apply strength they are usually strong in one direction, that gives us seven remaining directions to effectively apply our own strength. 15 lines. Some are more effective than others.

So it can operate psychologically or physically, but as time goes on I'm less willing to rely on simple leverage. You combine both aspects in application, the eight gates working in harmony with the five steps.

[Steve James]

There are several styles of tcc that emphasize qinna (small joint and "big" qinna). Small qinna, like wrist wraps, are baked into the GBT sequence. YMAA's stuff, Yang Jwing Ming, is the most well known, ime. But, yeah, lost of people say it's not traditional tcc.

Anyway, though tcc theory might not be about pain-compliance, that doesn't mean breaking limbs isn't. Qinna is more than pain compliance. And, imo, it isn't practical to eliminate any method of self-defense.

Afa the leading a bull by the ring in its nose, I agree that it's not the same as 'four ounces to 'move/'deflect' a thousand pounds'. In one sense, that's a matter of leverage. Still, a bull can be lead by someone holding that ring, and trying to move it by force. So, the analogy is the use of a small force to affect a larger one, even if the bull example isn't a good simile.

[windwalker]

There are several styles of tcc that emphasize qinna (small joint and "big" qinna). Small qinna, like wrist wraps, are baked into the GBT sequence. YMAA's stuff, Yang Jwing Ming, is the most well known, ime. But, yeah, lost of people say it's not traditional tcc.

Rather then "traditional" why not use "theory" ?

Theory guides usage, usage guides understanding , understanding guides development,
development testing confirms theory...


For example recently "double weight" was mentioned

The reality of Tai Chi is determined by Qi, not by weight.

This is another characteristic of Zhengzi Tai Chi. "Thirteen Chapters of Zheng Zi Tai Chi" states: "The burden of the whole body can only be placed on one foot. If the burden is shared by two feet, it is double."

Teacher Wu often described how Master Zheng modified his boxing and ordered him to stand still.

I always have to distinguish between false and true. Occasionally, I will come over to check, and I will tick Teacher Wu’s false foot to check whether it is double.

This drama also extends to Teacher Wu’s teaching. He often requires students to leave the ground with their empty feet at any time. Unfortunately, most students misunderstand the meaning of the teacher, and often do whatever it takes, just to get the weak foot off the ground.

Those having trained with Ben Lo, a noted exponent of Cheng style taiji often did the same..
I too noted the same deficiencies in his classes by those trying to meet the requirement...
They misunderstood the intent of the practice

At best, it can only be said that the light foot lifts off the ground, and often they have to rely on the heavier foot to help support, or even If the body is too tilted to one side, it will not only lose its center, comfort, and support in all directions, but it will also misinterpret the true meaning of distinguishing reality from reality [Note 12].

Although we call the foot on which the weight of the whole body is placed the real foot and the other the empty foot, we do not realize that "empty and real" come from the difference between Qi and not the difference between severity and severity.

The Boxing Sutra says, "There is a virtual and a solid foot in one place, and this is always the case everywhere." "One Virtual and Real" has pointed out that the theory of virtual and real is not important. In terms of the deficiency and excess of the two feet, the heavier one is the solid foot.

This is because it carries the weight of the upper body, causing the turbid Qi to drop a lot and the clear Qi (earth Qi) to rise slightly.

On the contrary, the weak foot has less burden and can guide the earth Qi to rise more obviously, or even In the process of changing from real to virtual, the whole empty foot rises with the energy of the ground, and it seems that even the weight of the foot has been drained away.

This is what Tai Chi means to distinguish the real and empty legs. Moreover, the already empty empty feet can easily change steps without shaking the body. This is the purpose of distinguishing the virtual from the real [

Not to say other methods or interpretations are wrong,,only that for those who follow the method based on this theory,,,
they would be..

Might not be understandable until a certain level of "demonstrated" development has been reached

[wayne hansen]

To dispute the error of double weighting is to dispute the whole of tai chi
Thé ring thru the nose dosent rely on pain it is an explanation of mechanics
Even though in the bulls case it is paramount
Leverage is low level Tai Chi
It is more Hydraulics

[origami_itto]

To dispute the error of double weighting is to dispute the whole of tai chi
Thé ring thru the nose dosent rely on pain it is an explanation of mechanics
Even though in the bulls case it is paramount
Leverage is low level Tai Chi
It is more Hydraulics

Show us. Talking is the lowest level. If you think "weight in both feet" is double weighted then you haven't Even seen the door much less entered it.

[wayne hansen]

Oh I missed something
Not only the feet

[origami_itto]

Oh I missed something
Not only the feet

That's what I was saying in the earlier reference to the concept, that introducing it as the weight in both feet is more confusing than helpful.

[Trick]

Taijiquan can not be learned from books.
Even the masters who wrote books knew this, if anyone reader feel cheated by this it’s their own fault.
First Taijiquan - then books, not in any other way of order

[DiaitaDoc]

As with many people, I initially learned (incorrectly) that “double weighting” had to do with our own stance/footwork. Took me a while to realize that “double weighting” is actually “double pressure”* in TaiJi.

Taiji Boxing emphasizes softness over hardness not only because of the principle that softness can overcome hardness, but mainly to keep practitioners from committing the error of “double pressure”. Some people think that “double pressure” means that both legs are supporting the weight at the same time, and so they avoid performing any horse-riding stances. This is so incorrect that it will make practitioners neurotic.
　　I will leave it up you whether you want to perform the horse-riding stances in the boxing set, since the concept of double pressure instead has to do with pushing hands.
( https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -xu-zhiyi/ )

Yao FuChun & Jiang RongQiao wrote:
When someone has been training for a number of years, practicing until he is otherwise very skillful, and yet is not able to carry out neutralizations, sending out his hands only to end up under his opponent’s control, he has still not understood the error of “double pressure”. If you wish to avoid the error of double pressure, you have to understand the passive and active aspects. Passive and active means emptiness and fullness, as well as indirect and direct. When I encounter an opponent, if I feel a situation of double pressure, I then sink away one side so there is both emptiness (passive) and fullness (active). When he empties, I fill. When his pressure becomes heavy, mine lightens. When sticking, it is easy to yield. By yielding, you are able to stick. Indirect techniques can become direct, and direct techniques can immediately be changed to become indirect. Indirect, direct, empty, full, none of these come from myself, they are all changes I make according to the opponent’s actions. Able to stick and yield, knowing both passive and active, you will then be able to deal with opponents effortlessly, and it can be said that you are identifying energies.
( https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -rongqiao/ )

Long ZiXiang wrote:
The use of force in a nutshell: “If you drop one side, you can move. If you have equal pressure on both sides, you will be stuck.” By extension, if two people are equally using force, they will be resisting against each other and the stronger one will win. Therefore equal pressure on both sides means getting stuck. But if two people are using force against each other and one suddenly loosens, then the one who is exerting strength will be neutralized by the one who relaxes. Therefore letting go on one side means being free to move.
( https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-zixiang/ )

Using this principle is, imo, what allows us to lead opponents into vulnerable positions and apply the 4 oz. rule.

If a 1000lb tower is on the cusp of falling over, then it doesn’t take much to send it toppling.

So the 4 oz. Moving 1000lbs is the endgame, once the 1000lbs have been guided to the limit of stability.

*Interestingly, the older TaiJi texts use “double pressure”, but the XingYi texts of the same era & later explain “double weighting” as being very much related to the stance. So I suspect that, being classified as an internal art, XingYi’s terminology & concepts bled into TaiJi… perhaps through Sun Lu Tang?

[ThomasK]

If you are moving at all, you will always have one line of power from one foot starting in the front area of the foot. The other line of power starts from the back area of the other foot.

Lifting a leg, standing on one leg, makes the lifted leg yin to allow it to be physically lifted.

The remaining single supporting leg becomes yang to allow it to carry the additional burden easier.

Those yin yang changes spread throughout the whole body and determine what the posture looks like.

If the feet change the whole body changes. If the body changes the feet change.

This clear differentiation of yin yang within yourself is called 'avoiding double weightedness'.

It's a foundational requirement for being nimble and capable of smoothly changing oneself to suit the opponents moves.

Edit: Depending on chosen rotation things may change a bit. But the idea is the same. Yin yang change starts in the feet.

[GrahamB]

Haven't read all this, but the easiest way to understand the concept for me is leverage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7dUtwejenQ

[Bao]

Agree with Wayne that "leverage" doesn't really cover what we do in Tai chi. Hydraulics is certainly better...

Mmm... Let me think...
Is pulling the rug out from underneath someone, putting a bana peel in front of someone's foot, or changing the direction of the water by the use of curvatures of pipes, more about "leverage" or similar to hydraulics? I would say way more the latter. But I am no expert in physics, so let's ask someone with the knowledge..

Me: What physical principles and terms cover redirecting motion and the manipulation of a mass in motion?

ChatGPT: Redirecting motion and manipulating a mass in motion involve various physical principles and terms, depending on the context. Here are some key concepts that might apply:

Newton's Laws of Motion: These laws describe the relationship between the motion of an object and the forces acting on it. For example, Newton's first law states that an object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an external force. This principle is fundamental to understanding how to redirect or manipulate the motion of a mass.

Conservation of Momentum: This principle states that the total momentum of a closed system remains constant if no external forces act on it. When redirecting motion or manipulating a mass in motion, conservation of momentum can be important to consider, as changing the direction or speed of an object will affect its momentum.

Friction: Friction is the force that opposes the motion of one surface as it moves across another surface. When redirecting motion, friction can either help or hinder the process, depending on how it is utilized.

Centripetal Force: This force is directed toward the center of a circular path and is responsible for keeping an object moving in a curved path. It is essential for understanding how to manipulate the motion of objects in circular or rotational motion.

Fluid Dynamics: This field of physics deals with the motion of fluids (liquids and gases) and how they interact with solid objects. Understanding fluid dynamics is crucial for manipulating the motion of fluids, such as redirecting the flow of water through pipes or channels.

Mechanical Engineering Principles: Concepts such as levers, pulleys, gears, and inclined planes are often used to manipulate the motion of masses in various mechanical systems. These principles enable engineers to design mechanisms that can redirect motion efficiently.

Control Systems: In modern engineering, control systems are used to manipulate and regulate the motion of masses in real-time. These systems often involve sensors, actuators, and feedback mechanisms to achieve precise control over motion.

Me: Can you sum it up in one concept?

ChatGPT: The concept that encompasses redirecting motion and manipulating a mass in motion is "kinematics and dynamics."

Kinematics deals with the motion of objects without considering the forces that cause the motion, focusing on variables like position, velocity, and acceleration. Dynamics, on the other hand, involves the study of the forces that cause motion and how they affect the motion of objects.

Together, kinematics and dynamics cover the principles and terms related to redirecting motion and manipulating masses in motion, encompassing concepts such as Newton's laws, conservation of momentum, friction, centripetal force, fluid dynamics, and mechanical engineering principles.

... So "Kinematics and dynamics"

Do you agree?