Jian v knife

[Bao]

There are a certain type of jian that has a thick, blunt, not sharp part, but that is certainly not standard. The vast majority of the swords are all sharp.

[Giles]

Very cool if you're facing one opponent. Probably not good in a melee against armored opponents.

That's the essential point, I think. IF you can handle a jian fairly well (which of course means doing a lot of free partner work, not just form and fixed exercises) then it's great for a 1 on 1 duel. If the opponent is more or less unarmoured. And if you have plenty of space to manoeuvre. In a melee situation, or even against multiple unarmoured opponents who will be coming at you simultaneously if they can, then a dao is much better. (Just to remain with Chinese swords, not going into the various HEMA sword types here).

[Steve James]

Well, the only opportunity for half-swording (grabbing the blade) of anything is because one is in very close range. The subject was rapiers first (and I mean a la Musketeer style, there are many types. Some have edges, but we were talking about the main use, which is thrusting. if the opponent has a long range weapon (like a long rapier), then the solution for someone with a shorter weapon (in this case a katana), would be to close the distance. For ex., by backing the rapier user into a corner where the reach advantage is neutralized.

Btw. fwiw, Musketeers wore gloves, and even today rapier competitors wear gloves (and eye protection because one of the best targets is the face. It's hard to stab what you can't see).

Anyway, imo, tcc jian technique at least afa sparring is a sensitivity exercise, not combat practice. Sword work in general should teach agility. The legs and footwork are as important as the wrist.

[wayne hansen]

If u are close enough to grab the sword in its non lethal place
Then u can grab the arm
Yes the face is a good place to attack as is the hand
Like I have said here before unless it is live blade v live blade
Any training is as good as any other
Sparing is just play even with dull blades anything approaching reality will result in injuries
I have yet to see any form of free play that approaches reality
Saying that all training is valuable but don’t think u are being real
The 4 tai chi weapons teach skills and create energy that effects the empty hand form
Pushing/San shou/free sparing are all parts of these weapons


If you don’t do the pole you can’t understand the spear
If u don’t know the spear the knife is beyond u
If u don’t know the knife why approach the sword
All lead back to the fist
If you know the fist everything is a weapon

My teacher has a large scar on his upper arm wher a kukri was imbedded in the bone
He fled to get attention before he bled out he never found out why it was done
Believe me when u play with him with a blade it soon becomes serious

[Steve James]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QKs-Ojz7bIo[/youtube]

[origami_itto]

The jian has 3 levels of shaprness but none of it is unsharpened
Even if it was the ability to grab one part in combat is just silly
The whole idea of the jian is elusiveness it is related to the dragon for a reason
Try handling a snake in summer that dosent want to be picked up
Once again it is a case of those that don’t know quoting others that don’t know

The techniques are also offensive, you grab your own to get extra leverage. It's a legitimate sword technique used offensively and defensively across multiple disciplines, no reason it won't work in Chinese particularly since the steel was generally much poorer quality.



If it has everything, it should have this. The video I posted broke down ways it works with armor and without across the Western traditions.

A scholars weapon might be sharp all the way but a weapon meant for real fighting, I'm sure your research would bear out is blunt by the guard.

[wayne hansen]

Just the fact u mention leverage shows you don’t understand the jian
Do you even practice if so for how long and who taught you

[origami_itto]

Just the fact u mention leverage shows you don’t understand the jian
Do you even practice if so for how long and who taught you

Man you are hilarious.

If you think you can forget about leverage in fencing you're clearly an ascended blade master with thousands of hours of combat.

The LARP is strong.

[origami_itto]

And I've studied weapons for over 20 years, don't currently practice any forms. Was originally taught by a collegiate fencing champion/mechanical engineer who had a couple decades of SCA heavy weapons fighting every weekend behind him. Did that for a while. Spent a few years learning from someone with about 30 years experience with Chinese weapons, including the wudang jian, san cai sek (sp?) and that damn opera form... man jon hong? that all use the jian, and a passion for historical European combat and weapons. Kept up about 10 forms for a few years. Have since learned a few new jian takes, one via the Huang line, the other the Dong, along with the Dong saber that I taught to a few folks in Austin, but honestly need to get back into swinging things around and hitting people with them. I just grab a stick or sword or whip off the rack and work out by doing flowers or circles versus doing a form.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with trying to discredit me when you could just empty your cup and (obviously) learn a thing or two.

[Giles]

I didn't see your last posting, wrote this before...

In this case I would agree with Wayne, in the sense that 'leverage' is much less of a thing with the jian. Of course, it depends how you define leverage and it will always be there in some way. It will turn up to some extent in CMC-style sticky swords and in sword sparring, but usually the less the better. If the other guy doesn't watch out, you may seize/control his hand for a moment and slice and get out again or even disarm before he can recover. However, if you post an image of a half-swording guy in full harness, Origami, then that's a very different kind of 'leverage': willingly closing to grapple and using lots of explicit leverage to get the point of your sword into the cracks and weak points of the armour. Here, any kind of slicing, cutting of tendons, muscles, blood vessels etc. is not going to happen, period. And the sword itself, probably an arming sword, has to be much stiffer and more robust than a typical jian. When it comes to the jian, when held in one hand it would be almost a fluke if it were to find and penetrate an armour gap even point-first. And if you just look at any established jian form, you see the jian really is more of the 'water' element, flowing around resistance - half-swording doesn't put in an appearance. The great majority of techniques in the jian form would never work against someone in full armour - to me it seems more of a 'civilian' weapon, but I'm open to correction on that point.

[origami_itto]

I didn't see your last posting, wrote this before...

In this case I would agree with Wayne, in the sense that 'leverage' is much less of a thing with the jian. Of course, it depends how you define leverage and it will always be there in some way. It will turn up to some extent in CMC-style sticky swords and in sword sparring, but usually the less the better. If the other guy doesn't watch out, you may seize/control his hand for a moment and slice and get out again or even disarm before he can recover. However, if you post an image of a half-swording guy in full harness, Origami, then that's a very different kind of 'leverage': willingly closing to grapple and using lots of explicit leverage to get the point of your sword into the cracks and weak points of the armour. Here, any kind of slicing, cutting of tendons, muscles, blood vessels etc. is not going to happen, period. And the sword itself, probably an arming sword, has to be much stiffer and more robust than a typical jian. When it comes to the jian, when held in one hand it would be almost a fluke if it were to find and penetrate an armour gap even point-first. And if you just look at any established jian form, you see the jian really is more of the 'water' element, flowing around resistance - half-swording doesn't put in an appearance. The great majority of techniques in the jian form would never work against someone in full armour - to me it seems more of a 'civilian' weapon, but I'm open to correction on that point.

My whole point with the jian lately is that it's a very context specific weapon.

Leverage is key particularly when you're trying to do all this fancy "water based" technique. I agree that you don't see Chinese forms involving grabbing the lower third of your own or the opponents blade due to the arrogance and lack of practical experience of the folks designing and propagating the forms.

Sabre and stick form all day long.

The blocking techniques of the lower third use leverage, the sliding techniques of the middle third use leverage, every aspect of handling a sword, much less hitting or cutting someone with it is going to involve leverage. The further a load is from the fulcrum and applied force the harder you have to work at it. This is the primary concept in blade contact.

And I know there is this fantasy where doing this dance every day means you can just waltz between the strikes of your clumsy external foe but the reality is your blades are going to hit each other at some point and a weapon intended for fighting takes that into account.

You're not going to half sword in that fashion, and just reaching out and grabbing a blade is kind of dumb, but let's say you get bound and you can push their sword towards the strong hand, exposing the lower third behind yours with their tiger mouth facing you. Reach over your arm. Grab the lower third and pull while pushing the sword toward them, disarm and remove defense while attacking.

Just one example. Another being if for some reason you need to get two hands worth of power into something by "third swording".

I learned 13 sword energies of Taiji Jian, y'all are talking about 2-3 of them as if that's everything transmitted and that there's nothing else a sword can do.

But really. Yes, I posted a picture of somebody half swording a rapier.

This thread started with a comparison of rapier to sabre as if it were relevant to a discussion of Taiji Jian. How is accurate historical use of that weapon not relevant in this discussion? How is a discussion of blade grasping techniques by the same individual regarding the same weapon somehow incorrect?

I get that we have emotional attachment to our ideas, but seems like we're wanting to cherrypick our blade arts.

Yes these forms are missing techniques common to blade arts from cultures that actively fought wars using similar weapons, techniques that come out of active fighters trying to explore these systems today. that should tell us that they aren't the ultimate badass completely comprehensive king systems of swordplay and that maybe we should test our assumptions.

[wayne hansen]

So basically you are telling people how to practice something you don’t practice

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/YT_bmO6CnRA?si=zZ7Gz7YUB3urPBt-

[origami_itto]

So basically you are telling people how to practice something you don’t practice

Not at all. Not once have I told anybody they shouldn't do what makes them happy. I need to dust off my forms but I'm well versed. Did I not just explain that?

What I've said is that Wudang Jian and really I'd say most everything under the umbrella of Taiji Jian is not directly applicable to any realistic legal combat or self defense scenario.

You've proven that thoroughly correct in your responses here that imagine a context and contact free scenario where the moves are made up and the physics don't matter. Who's sword is it anyway?

You're even confused about the nature of the weapon itself and are fixated upon this one most useless iteration of the weapon as the singular example of its use and construction.

There's a lot of good stuff in the Taiji/Wudang Jian, realistically learning how to fight with it isn't really present.

Let's move beyond ad hominem and appeal to authority, Wayne. Let's talk evidence and history. Let's demonstrate. Let's elevate the discussion and move forward instead of being crabs in a bucket.

[Steve James]

Jmo, but I think someone with a tcc jian wouldn't half-sword another jian; they might do it to someone with a spear or a "long" sword.

Afa sharpening the length of a jian, there are lots of examples of that. The problem is that jian is just a general term for double edged sword. Tcc jians aren't sharpened the entire length because they don't need to be. If you've ever tried to sharpen one, thick metal is harder to get as sharp as thin metal. Imo, you're rarely going to hit someone that close to the hilt anyway. If you're that close, then grabbing a hand or weapon is possible.

I don't think a tcc jian would be used like the longsword in origami's example because it's too flexible, not because it's too sharp. But, that gets down to the basic question of how the weapon is practiced. I don't think that tcc type jian is a "combat" weapon. For ex., check the tip. Is it pointed or curved. If it's pointed, it's probably a lot stiffer and much better for stabbing. It might also be shorter.

The most authentic arguments about this would be from people writing at the time of Chinese v European swordsmen in duels. The English wrote a lot about sword conflicts with other cultures. The end result is that the sabre was the major sword style. But, it'd be great to find a report of a jian duel against a European style weapon. Yeah, this is all scholarly stuff. It's just about practice, not spilling blood.

Ah, yeah, afa duels, they're often recorded because they were not to the death -only to the point where blood was drawn. The Duelists movie with Keitel and Carradine has two guys fighting 6 duels. The actual guys fought 30.