Jian v knife

[origami_itto]

I only point that out to show tai chi was not lacking

I never said Tai Chi sword was lacking, per se, just that the sword-fighting context it prepares you for is limited, and that considering the wudang form a complete practice is fantasy.

I'd also argue that it's less like a rapier, particularly as modern fencing goes, and more like a western fencing sabre.

Largely going back to the design differences, i.e. the rapier is a point stabbing weapon only, never really had an edge.

The jian, having the razor section, cleaver section, and dull section, allows for the stabbing of the rapier, slicing, AND the hacking and chopping of the sabre, AND a thick, blunt blocking/catching/grasping surface.

[wayne hansen]

I was answering a question someone else asked me not replying to you

[origami_itto]

I was answering a question someone else asked me not replying to you

Sure I wasn't being defensive, I just remember you had written something similar previously in the ongoing conversation.

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/03N27COiLJU?si=geh3Clv1LqeBecNu

[jaime_g]

It always confuses me who started with the myth that the rapiers are only stabbing weapons. Sure, thrusts are the main attack, but cuts are everywhere in most rapier methods, particularly in spanish rapier, where cuts are essential.

[Bao]

Yes, no one would try to grasp a jian, but the dao can be grabbed and also pushed. However, anyone who knows dao swordplay would circle, twist and turn the sword, making it very hard to read the direction and the sword's angle upon hit. This is one reason why dao swordplay looks more elaborate and fancy than the more clean strikes by the Japanese Katana. It might not be as fast, but you can use it in a way that you confuse the opponent.

I never said Tai Chi sword was lacking, per se, just that the sword-fighting context it prepares you for is limited.
...
The jian, having the razor section, cleaver section, and dull section, allows for the stabbing of the rapier, slicing, AND the hacking and chopping of the sabre, AND a thick, blunt blocking/catching/grasping surface.

Don't you contradict yourself a bit? When you can use the jian in so many different ways, why would it be limited? What about the dao would be less limited?

[Bao]

It always confuses me who started with the myth that the rapiers are only stabbing weapons. Sure, thrusts are the main attack, but cuts are everywhere in most rapier methods, particularly in spanish rapier, where cuts are essential.

It might depend on the type of rapier and context. I don't trust chatGPT very much, but the reply confirmed what I was thinking.

The belief that a rapier is primarily a stabbing weapon likely stems from its design and historical use.

Rapiers are long, slender swords with a sharp point, designed for thrusting attacks rather than slashing or cutting. This design makes them highly effective for delivering precise and lethal thrusts, especially in the context of dueling or one-on-one combat where accuracy and speed are paramount. Additionally, the rapier's blade is often stiff and well-balanced, further enhancing its suitability for thrusting motions.

Historically, rapiers were popularized during the Renaissance era, particularly in Europe, where they were commonly used as civilian weapons for self-defense and dueling. Their emphasis on thrusting attacks made them well-suited for the etiquette and rules of formal duels, where combatants aimed to incapacitate or kill their opponents with a single, well-placed thrust.

While rapiers can certainly deliver slashing or cutting attacks, they are not as effective for these motions compared to swords specifically designed for slashing, such as sabers or broadswords. As a result, the rapier's reputation as a primarily stabbing weapon is reinforced by its design and historical use in dueling and self-defense contexts.

[wayne hansen]

The jian is most defiantly a cutting blade
I’m sure the rapier is likewise
Grabbing blades is not something I like
Too much room for error
I’m not a swordsman and unless you have faced someone with a live blade set to do you harm neither are most people

[Steve James]

Well, rapiers -a la Musketeers- are thrusting weapons. The point needs to be sharp, but the length generally isn't. It could slice through skin, not through clothing, and it can't lop off a limb.

Afa half-swording, there are manuals with examples from the times that people actually used swords. But, even today, people will grab at or onto a live knife blade in defense -and I don't mean sacrificial cuts. I mean it's instinctive. Otoh, I think it'd be hard to half-sword a saber (Polish, Persian, Indian, etc) or most curved swords. Ever watch The Deluge?


As I wrote before, we should really separate tcc jian technique. The tcc jian is, imo, more of a slicing weapon than other more traditional Chinese jian styles. The Wudang sword and the tcc sword have exactly the same 13 techniques. The majority are not thrusts, but slices. I have a couple of jians that are "cutters," but they're a bit stiffer. Tcc techniques, however, only require slices (of arteries, veins, ligaments, and tendons at joints. Very cool if you're facing one opponent. Probably not good in a melee against armored opponents.

[Steve James]

Sorry, had to rewatch this one too. Roth is cutting with his rapier.

[wayne hansen]

Even the two man Dao form is all cuts to vital points

[Steve James]

Even the two man Dao form is all cuts to vital points

Well, the difference is that if you can miss artery and still cut off the arm.

[origami_itto]

Yes, no one would try to grasp a jian, but the dao can be grabbed and also pushed. However, anyone who knows dao swordplay would circle, twist and turn the sword, making it very hard to read the direction and the sword's angle upon hit. This is one reason why dao swordplay looks more elaborate and fancy than the more clean strikes by the Japanese Katana. It might not be as fast, but you can use it in a way that you confuse the opponent.

I never said Tai Chi sword was lacking, per se, just that the sword-fighting context it prepares you for is limited.
...
The jian, having the razor section, cleaver section, and dull section, allows for the stabbing of the rapier, slicing, AND the hacking and chopping of the sabre, AND a thick, blunt blocking/catching/grasping surface.

Don't you contradict yourself a bit? When you can use the jian in so many different ways, why would it be limited? What about the dao would be less limited?

There are many ways to use the jian but the situations where you need them are limited.

It's got the slicing, the neutralizing, the stabbing, chopping, blocking, theoretically...

But this is my point, you're never in your life going to actually draw on those skills in a sword fight.

At best you'll do a mock duel or sparring, but that isn't likely, is it? Be honest.

The form is not about training you for sword fighting, and there is no modern combat context where a jian is legal or appropriate.

The form is first and foremost about looking good watch the toes when the knee is lifted.

Going further it's about training skills and qualities that translate into other areas.

[origami_itto]

The jian is most defiantly a cutting blade
I’m sure the rapier is likewise
Grabbing blades is not something I like
Too much room for error
I’m not a swordsman and unless you have faced someone with a live blade set to do you harm neither are most people

The lower section, roughly third, of a jian and some Western long swords is blunt. That allows for the user to grab it for added leverage in certain techniques. When you're actually trying to fight for your life sometimes you need to improve the class of your lever.

https://youtu.be/o0-corEMZ5Y?si=31IWMm4FzeXxvIc6

This is a good breakdown of the blade anatomy
https://swordis.com/blog/parts-of-a-chinese-sword/

[wayne hansen]

The jian has 3 levels of shaprness but none of it is unsharpened
Even if it was the ability to grab one part in combat is just silly
The whole idea of the jian is elusiveness it is related to the dragon for a reason
Try handling a snake in summer that dosent want to be picked up
Once again it is a case of those that don’t know quoting others that don’t know