Jian v knife

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/m5pwmvkG1oI?si=7dnodE1YoKXDv_eu

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/hes7-gGqtLs?si=HYx8AI_03zwrNYP5

[Steve James]

I love scholargladitoria

Anyway, imo, the thread should be labelled jian v dao because that's precisely the problem he deals with in video #2. I think he gives a perfect explanation of why Confucius said "Don't give a sword to a man who can't dance."

In the second part of video #1, his solution reminds me of fma. Imo, the one thing that tcc jian teaching doesn't emphasize is the use of the free hand -other than sword-fingers. Maybe that's true because most of the work is done with the first 1/3. What he says about and opponent getting stabbed and not even knowing it is interesting when it comes to the jian. If you don't manage to disable the opponent and they get close, what then? (Maybe he has a vid on how to actually use a tcc jian -which imo shouldn't be taken as the typical practical use jian. Here's a jian he's reviewed.


What do you think?

[origami_itto]

In the second part of video #1, his solution reminds me of fma. Imo, the one thing that tcc jian teaching doesn't emphasize is the use of the free hand -other than sword-fingers. Maybe that's true because most of the work is done with the first 1/3.
What do you think?

That's an interesting perspective. I think of my empty hand being actively involved in whatever I'm doing. Lots of places in the jian form it's assisting the weapon hand, other places it's grabbing and pulling. At the very least it's an active part of overall balance and energy expression. Very active "off hand".

[Steve James]

Sure, but where and how does your off hand affect the opponent or their weapon. Ime, there's no half-swording or hand counters in typical tcc jian use. For ex., in most tcc jian sparring exercises, the emphasis is on sensitivity through binding.

[origami_itto]

Sure, but where and how does your off hand affect the opponent or their weapon. Ime, there's no half-swording or hand counters in typical tcc jian use. For ex., in most tcc jian sparring exercises, the emphasis is on sensitivity through binding.

In literally every movement. It can be lifting, pulling, deflecting, controlling. There's a lot of subtlety and variation in what people do with that hand due to drift and lack of martial application, in my opinion. Like I've been saying, Taiji/Wudang Jian is largely a symbolic and mental practice more than a fighting form.

BUT, like the solo forms, the base principles the movements are based on can be extracted and dusted off and cleaned up for closer inspection, if you really want to take your studies in that direction.

[origami_itto]

So here, you can look at the opening circle itself as a stroke of some sort, then the first movement to the left, the empty right hand is a definite strike, grab, and pull into the butt of the sword in the left hand.

From there, the "fair lady" type posture after the big dipper is a lifting to clear the way. The part horses mane or diagonal flying type posture is a grab and extend into them....

If you think of it as a mainly "grab and stab" or "vice and slice" style of fighting it makes a lot of sense.

There's a lot of chopping and stabbing and range attacks too, don't get me wrong, but the meat and potatoes ,as far as the taijiquan aspect in my opinion is cook ding's knife, physically and conceptually. Like point striking that only really works against an opponent you are in control of.

[Steve James]

Hey, jme with what I've seen people do. It's not a matter of what can be done. My comment was about the emphasis in practice, not whether it was possible.
For ex.


But, here's TT Liang's form


Compare to Wudang sword

[origami_itto]

Yeah it's all up to what you're working on I guess.

[Steve James]

Yep.

[wayne hansen]

There is no half swording in the dao where your hand wraps the sword
However great emphasis is placed on how the (live) hand supports the sword
This is like Lightning Scientific Arnis of Ben Lima
It is based on espada Yi daga and even though you don’t have a knife in the live hand if u have trained EYD you can see it’s there
Likewise EYD teaches grappling by how u use the knife
My dao form is not the same as the one that comes thru Fu or the Yang family
All the moves are in the same order but done in a different manner
I went to learn FMA because I thought tai chi weapons might be lacking but I found the opposite to be true
Back to the video posted the only thing I find questionable is stopping the double handed katana with a single handed rapier

[Steve James]

I went to learn FMA because I thought tai chi weapons might be lacking but I found the opposite to be true

Do you mean that fma weapons are lacking or that you wouldn't have known if you hadn't studied fma?

[wayne hansen]

I worded that badly
FMA I learned is certainally not lacking but I trained with the best
I just meant there was nothing lacking in tai chi weapons
M’y first FMA teacher became a student of mine and still is 40 years later
He has high Dan ranking in FMA Hapkido and Karate
I only point that out to show tai chi was not lacking

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/HFpyzboih08?si=d13jGsCO1S-Vazfh

[edededed]

Interesting videos.

There are some similarities in the usage of jian with rapier, but certainly jian is a heavier weapon and has both sharp sides to its blade; the rapier (and other European dueling swords) often are only incidentally sharp (or even just blunt) on the sides. Practicing jian, there are many cuts (both forward and backward) as well as stabbing; dao has some stabbing, but is mostly forward slicing.

The guy in the video talks about why in Japan most swordsmen only used one sword (and not the katana and wakizashi together) - in my opinion this was more just due to culture and conformity and Japan's insularity. (Among other things, it would have been interesting to see Musashi's school of double swordplay more often in history after his passing, but for better or for worse it mostly quietly continued on in Kyushu while the swordsmen in Edo, Kyoto, etc. all fought each other with just one sword.)

(Wayne has given me a new, interesting perspective on taiji sword, but I am still chewing on this. )