the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Sent to me in a discussion about the "Shaolin" martial arts and its origin derived from India - Argument made that this was a shuai jiao exercise used in India along with ancient Indian wrestling.

Also it was argued that almost all Chinese martial arts originated in the Shaolin Temple - Well does that mean that all the forms and postures were "created" within the Shaolin Temple?

If not, then where did such postures originate outside of the Shaolin Temple if they weren't all "invented" within the Temple?

If not "invented" or "created" within the Temple, how did such forms and practices find their way into the Temple?

As another participant stated, "If they did come from the outside of the Temple then all Chinese martial arts did not originate within the Temple and it is almost impossible to specify what exactly came in from India?"

One added note from a previous set of postings: the Buddhism arriving from India was integrated with the native Daoism of China which essentially created a "new species" of Buddhism relatively unique to China and substantially different from say Japan or Korea.

I leave it up you (plural) to decide

https://youtube.com/shorts/4t0kf_46460? ... LD-UFZPvKA

[youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/4t0kf_46460?si=9JK9xILD-UFZPvKA[/youtube]

The new species of buddhism is 禪 Chan which is pronounced Zen in Japanese, but I think Chan was then blended with Shintoism when it migrated to Japan, but don’t quote me on that.

Chinese Marital Arts Originated in India

The Kamasutra is one obvious source...

cats, dogs, primates, deer, antelope, you name it ... all "wrestle" and "spar". chinese, indians, greeks, whatever ---- none of them "invented" wrestling or "martial arts". probably not even "invented" by homo sapiens. maybe homo habilis invented them. we homo sapiens are ridiculously self-centered

How do you know it wasn't India that imported Chinese wrestling training?

Shuai Jiao was brought into China by the mongols in the Qing dynasty, there's nothing that connects it with earlier forms of Chinese wrestling.

Thus, there is nothing that connects Shuai Jiao to the Shaolin Temple.

No Indian monk brought indian martial arts into China. Chinese martial arts are older than Chinese Buddhism. The Indian influence is just a myth.

Anyway, India has its own history of martial arts that go back to the 5th millennium BC. Mud-wrestling, for example, is still practiced professionally.

Wasn't the original story that the Indian monk brought health exercises? I mean, Shaolinquan is characterized by the five animals, no? Anybody know if Indian any martial arts use that pattern? Imo, if so, the it might be a less legendary link.

I can buy the transmission of Buddhist exercises, but I think Chinese martial arts as they exist, emerged from Chinese culture. Otoh, afa war arts, the monks probably didn't invent those -because they were created for a different purpose. Isn't the story that Shaolin monks cut off the tips of spears because they didn't want to take life? Legend or not, people (armies) were using spears, swords, and other weapons. Maybe then it's possible to suggest that they also developed empty hand methods to a greater degree than soldiers.

An historian also made the point that it wasn't possible to separate cma from Chinese dance tradition.

Steve James wrote: Otoh, afa war arts, the monks probably didn't invent those -because they were created for a different purpose. Isn't the story that Shaolin monks cut off the tips of spears because they didn't want to take life?.

The real monks didn't fight or practice fighting. Buddhism teaches to not create suffering, not hurt and not kill. The "fighting monks" were robbers, mercenaries and other people who took refuge in the temples. They dressed as monks to hide and offered protection for food and somewhere to sleep. So why would they cut off spear tips? Doesn't make sense.

It was the story I heard, I wasn't there. I agree 100% about Buddhism (in theory), particularly Theravada. Otoh, I also know that Buddhists are just people. Maybe the story about using a staff instead of a spear made sense to me because I hadn't associated monks with carrying spears. See, if I were a bandito, I'd carry the stick with the blade at the end.

Anyway, my point was that the "real" monks would have focused more on hand-to-hand than farmers who were pressed into service to use weapons. At least, the time they had to practice gave them an advantage over other people. Imo, that might explain the legends about their superior skills. Since, as you point out, it wasn't because of their piety.

I made a series that covers this. I stil need to finish it, but the episodes released already show the reality of the so called claims

again i'll claim homo sapiens wasn't even the "inventor". it just doesn't make any logical sense, let alone figuring out if india or china had them first. here's wild speculation from chatGPT, but it makes sense.

Natural Fighting Instincts: Like many animals, early hominids likely had innate fighting instincts for survival, including basic techniques like striking, grappling, and defending. These instincts would have been honed through competition for resources, territory, and mates.

Primitive Combat for Survival: Prehistoric hominids faced threats from predators and rival groups, necessitating the development of basic combat skills for defense and hunting. Techniques might have included using sticks, stones, and other found objects as weapons, as well as bare-handed combat.

Social Dynamics and Group Conflict: Hominid groups likely engaged in intra-group conflicts over resources and territory. This would have fostered the development of structured forms of combat, potentially leading to the emergence of rudimentary martial arts techniques passed down through generations.

Cultural Transmission: Hominids were social creatures capable of learning from one another. Techniques for combat and self-defense would have been passed down through oral tradition, observation, and practice within communities.

Physical Adaptations: Early hominids had different physical characteristics compared to modern humans, such as robust builds and stronger musculature. Their martial arts techniques would have been adapted to make the most of these physical attributes, focusing on strength, agility, and endurance.

Ritualized Combat and Display: Some behaviors observed in modern primates, such as dominance displays and ritualized combat, may have had parallels in early hominid societies. These behaviors could have laid the foundation for more structured martial arts training and competitions.

Persia, id say Persia if anywhere if Chinese MA came/was influenced from cultures from outside.
Also in Japan Persian source is commonly suggested.
The area around/nearby Shaolin eary on settled with imigrants from Persia, bringing with them religions as judaism, zorohastianism（spelling ?:））, christianity and Islam and for sure some martially trained（soldiers） Persians must have followed along.
Persia-Mesopotamia-Sumer is the cradle of civilazation, for sure with that structured martial training methods should have their origin there too ?

wushutiger wrote:I made a series that covers this. I stil need to finish it, but the episodes released already show the reality of the so called claims

Couldn't ask for more - really should be boiled into a small book and made required reading of all Chinese martial arts practitioners - academic rigor and martial arts practices are not mutually exclusive - thanks for jolting that which I may have forgotten.

Provides insight into why taijiquan could not have originated in the Shaolin temple but probablistically arose and evolved from martial arts practices outside of the temple but not necessarily excluding some relationships to practitioners within the temple.

I haven't watched all of the episodes, but liked the series a lot. I agree that they could become a book or expanded into a more elaborate documentary. The material is generally excellent. But just because I am naturally a Besserwisser and a dick, I am going to chime in and say that there's a minor mistake about the writings. It's correct that what Bodhidharma taught was the Lankāvatāra Sūtra (Sanskrit: लङ्कावतार सूत्र). But it's not a prominent scripture at all in Chan Buddhism. The most important text in Chinese Chan Buddhism is the Diamond Sutra (or the "Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra", Sanskrit: वज्रच्छेदिका प्रज्ञापारमिता सूत्र, which actually means "The Diamond Cutter Perfection of Wisdom Sutra"). This was the Sutra that turned Hui Neng into a Buddhist and the main Sutra taught by Hui Neng and all patriarchs after him. Why is this important? First: it was translated into Chinese much earlier than Bodhidharma. The first known Chinese version was translated in the 4th century by the monk Kumārajīva (344–413 CE), Boddhidharma was born more than a couple of hundred years later. So, second: This shows that Bodhidharma DID NOT invent Chan Buddhism. He taught another branch of Buddhism. Chan Buddhism already existed. It is actually the earliest form of Chinese Buddhism as Buddhism was mixed with Taoism already when it entered China and it was originally viewed as a Taoist sect. So Buddhism was in fact introduced as a Taoist sect to the common people, not as a separate religion.


Could also mention that while the Lankāvatāra Sūtra focuses on the mind and the subjective nature of reality, the Diamond Sutra emphasizes the concept of emptiness and non-attachment. The Diamond Sutra also has the idea of "sudden enlightenment" that Hui Neng taught and is a corner-stone in Chan Buddhism, the direct realization of ultimate truth, in the text called Prajñāpāramitā or the "Perfection of Wisdom."

About fighting/warrior monks - they were found all over the world - here’s the Japanese ones https://www.ancient-origins.net/history ... ks-0017908

About fighting/warrior monks - they were found all over the world - here’s the Japanese ones https://www.ancient-origins.net/history ... ks-0017908