modern aikido

[Trip]

A: Pushing and Pulling
Modern Aikido has none of this. Pushing/pulling was as common to Ueshiba as breathing...

Greetings.

Pushing & Pulling sounds similar to one of the skills in Taiji.
I couldn't get a good sense of how Ueshiba actually applied Pushing and Pulling from your post.

Could go tell me how Ueshiba applied pushing and pulling on an opponent?
His methodology from setup to finish?

If you use this skill, could you also provide an example of when you used Pushing & Pulling against an opponent.

[Bodywork]

Rich
Posture? Is for newbies. To still be thinking about posture even after a year is just sad.
Posture is to learn to feel where your musculature is holding tension.
Okay
Done
Next?
How does THAT create structure?
Why have structure?
What is structure?
What is a center?
How do you maintain that in any imaginable position? Horizontal, upside down, rolling like a snake?

Ueshiba went on an on about manipulating the two kis ... in you. Care to describe that? Is kindergarten, first day of practice stuff- according to your founder?
Thoughts?
I answered the question about the dance of the Gods.
Your turn to answer

Figure out the above and you will be on your way to actually doing the way of aiki.
Aiki-do
The way of aiki is the way of yin/ yang
Being one with the universe
.
"I am aiki!" was not an arrogant trope. It was a provable declaration. I can have you touch almost any part of me while I am barely moving and you will feel aiki.
Why?
Aiki is in...me.
Every part of me.
I....am aiki as well. Its provable and testable. Anyone who truly understands Ueshiba, understands how to do this. And so far, 100% of your arts teachers have failed to show this when tested.
Why?
Modern aikido has no aiki and no understanding of what aiki ...is. More and more sensies now understand that too. And it stated with your founder shouting it in the dojo after he had retired.
Modern aikido teacher's just.. don't... Get it
No yin and yang....in you?
No aiki.
That is all.
Call it what ever you like. Make up names and practices. It will never be Ueshiba's "way of aiki."

[allen2saint]

Dan, I often feel you should have this sound file embedded in your posts just to punctuate the statements appropriately.

[Bodywork]

Dan, I often feel you should have this sound file embedded in your posts just to punctuate the statements appropriately.

This is the only answer I will give about me.... Stick to the thread please.

What do we say to all the other aikido teachers that switching over? This is growing.

I take the jabs in stride.
To be fair to me, I have put my ass on the line in open rooms with guys that were... Dying to put me in my place and shut me up. Some of it was violent.
Here I am.
100% have failed.
And I am kind and open afterward and they have all become friends. 1200 teachers and students later...
Maybe...just maybe...I was right.
And...
Here is the point.
Was I ever pointing to me?
Nope!!

I never point at me. I keep pointing to the stuff. When it comes to this stuff, any one who points to himself is either a fool or a fraud. This stuff hasbeen there for all of us, all along.
For Ueshiba to truly have legitimacy, he had to talk about a pedagogy. And he did. We have to keep looking past the people and look to the training.
If the bastards won't teach us? Fuck em. Go find someone who will.
We can no longer rescue flat earth believing, modern aikido from itself. We have to just keep showing Ueshiba's jewel and how to do it. 95% of modern aikido people stop once they feel it. It's the only way to point them back to rediscover his vision.

[allen2saint]

As far as your points, I look forward to meeting you one day and experiencing your work. In my hard training years, I got knocked around pretty good by people who basically used me as a punching bag with no intention of giving me the goods and I also saw some really awful, malicious things in Aikido, so I am 100% for making the real stuff available. That you are for the teaching the real thing is respectable, but all the same, I've gotta tell a joke now and then when the going gets heated.Not an insult. A joke. I can respect someone and still make a joke.

[Chris Li]

Osensei replied: " Very simple. You do not understand yin and yang."

That's very cool. Did he actually use Chinese terms when he said it, or their Japanese "equivalents", do you know?

I found two variations. In one article, he said in and yo, the Japanese for yin/yang. In another article he said Izanami and Izanagi. Ueshiba's code for yin/yang. I don't really know which one was right.

Mark

Henry Kono was the interpreter in the original story - according to him Ueshiba used Izanagi and Izanami, which he translated as Yin and Yang (In and Yo of course are the same kanji). Aside from the obvious symbolism, Izanagi and Izanami are known as "the god of yin" and "the god of yang" in the Nihongi.

In any case, Ueshiba often used the words Yin and Yang themselves, in a similar context.

Best,

Chris

[allen2saint]

To actually attempt to add some substance to this discussion, I once spoke with Sugano Sensei( in a potentially embarassing situation for me, which he handled with incredible class and kindness) and the only thing I could think to ask was, "O'Sensei spoke all the time about fire and water. Can you tell me what that means?"

He responded, "Fire moves vertically. Water moves horizontally."

As I recall, some have said Sugano Sensei "got it."

Thoughts?

EDIT: I might as well tell the story. My dojo hosted Sugano for a seminar for a weekend. At the end of the first day, we brought him out to a local restaurant that we thought he would like. I'd been practicing for less than a year, mind you, so I had no rank. Amidst the chit-chat I just walked to a place at the table and sat down. I looked around a second and realized I sat down next to Sugano's saved place at the table. I knew immediately that this was against the etiquette. All the black belts should be next to him! I started to get up and he sat down! So, I looked over to my teacher who just shrugged his shoulders and let me know it was OK so I sat back down, not wanting to insult him. Sugano Sensei did ask my rank but he was super polite, never copped attitude and answered my question when I asked. I know a lot of teachers who would have been big jerks about it. I always respected him for that and I'm sorry he's gone.

[WVMark]

A: Pushing and Pulling
Modern Aikido has none of this. Pushing/pulling was as common to Ueshiba as breathing...

Greetings.

Pushing & Pulling sounds similar to one of the skills in Taiji.
I couldn't get a good sense of how Ueshiba actually applied Pushing and Pulling from your post.

Could go tell me how Ueshiba applied pushing and pulling on an opponent?
His methodology from setup to finish?

If you use this skill, could you also provide an example of when you used Pushing & Pulling against an opponent.

Ueshiba was the one being pushed and pulled. He would have people push on his head while sitting, on his chest or hips while standing, etc. It was a basic demonstration of immovability. If one couldn't move Ueshiba as he was merely standing there, how then could they get the better of him (unbalance him, take his center, etc) when he moved in a more dynamic encounter?

Mark

[WVMark]

To actually attempt to add some substance to this discussion, I once spoke with Sugano Sensei( in a potentially embarassing situation for me, which he handled with incredible class and kindness) and the only thing I could think to ask was, "O'Sensei spoke all the time about fire and water. Can you tell me what that means?"

He responded, "Fire moves vertically. Water moves horizontally."

As I recall, some have said Sugano Sensei "got it."

Thoughts?

I think Ueshiba was a bit clearer on this topic. Translated by Chris Li at:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/mor ... way-cross/

合気道はまず天の浮橋に立たなければならないと言われる。天の浮橋とは火と水の交流という。丁度十字の姿、火と水の調和のとれた世界である。つまり高御産巣日、神産巣日二神が、右に螺旋して舞い昇り、左に螺旋して舞い降り、この二つの流れの御振舞によって世界が出来たという。火と水でカミになり、このカミ（火と水）の根源は一元に帰るが、一元から霊魂の源、物質の根源が生まれる。

It is said that Aikido must first stand on the Floating Bridge of Heaven. It is said that the Floating Bridge of Heaven is the exchange of Fire and Water. Precisely in the form of a cross, it is the world of Fire and Water in harmony. In other words, it is said the this world is created through the two actions of the twin gods Takami-Musubi and Kami-Musubi winding up in a spiral on the right and winding down in a spiral on the left. Fire (“Ka”) and Water (“mi”) become “Kami”, the source of this “Kami” (Fire and Water) returns to the one, but the one becomes the source of the physical and the spiritual.

[Bodywork]

And to be clear.
Fire and water is a management of meridians. Vertical and horizontal. No different than in the aiki forms and some chi gongs.
It creates stability... Against forces in and out... and power

[wayne hansen]

To actually attempt to add some substance to this discussion, I once spoke with Sugano Sensei( in a potentially embarassing situation for me, which he handled with incredible class and kindness) and the only thing I could think to ask was, "O'Sensei spoke all the time about fire and water. Can you tell me what that means?"

He responded, "Fire moves vertically. Water moves horizontally."

As I recall, some have said Sugano Sensei "got it."

Thoughts?

I met sugano first in the 70's in Darwin knew many of his students
And had the pleasure of pushing for 2 hrs daily with williewong when he was training with sugano
So willie was trying out all his aikido on me
When I moved to Queensland in 1988 the only decent martial arts school near by was one of his
He certainaly had it

[emptycloud]

Rich
Posture? Is for newbies. To still be thinking about posture even after a year is just sad.
Posture is to learn to feel where your musculature is holding tension.
Okay
Done
Next?
How does THAT create structure?
Why have structure?
What is structure?
What is a center?
How do you maintain that in any imaginable position? Horizontal, upside down, rolling like a snake?

Ueshiba went on an on about manipulating the two kis ... in you. Care to describe that? Is kindergarten, first day of practice stuff- according to your founder?
Thoughts?
I answered the question about the dance of the Gods.
Your turn to answer

Figure out the above and you will be on your way to actually doing the way of aiki.
Aiki-do
The way of aiki is the way of yin/ yang
Being one with the universe
.
"I am aiki!" was not an arrogant trope. It was a provable declaration. I can have you touch almost any part of me while I am barely moving and you will feel aiki.
Why?
Aiki is in...me.
Every part of me.
I....am aiki as well. Its provable and testable. Anyone who truly understands Ueshiba, understands how to do this. And so far, 100% of your arts teachers have failed to show this when tested.
Why?
Modern aikido has no aiki and no understanding of what aiki ...is. More and more sensies now understand that too. And it stated with your founder shouting it in the dojo after he had retired.
Modern aikido teacher's just.. don't... Get it
No yin and yang....in you?
No aiki.
That is all.
Call it what ever you like. Make up names and practices. It will never be Ueshiba's "way of aiki."

posture and mental calmness whilst grown men try to beat you with hands, head, feet, elbows, knees, sticks, knifes, and the occasional axe...
( I hate the axe, top heavy )

There is no end to this practice. If one were practicing posture only then that would be a different thing.

Posture is not static, tied to the mind it undulates with micro tensions, ticks and tells. Where does the mind and posture separate, you cannot find this.

Posture is mind, mind is posture.

I see no end to this study.

In a flash we become heavy and unmovable then instantly so light we almost disappear..

....and then clunk, its gone, attachment and desire rush in, a slight angle, something flashes in the periphery, the jo tightens around the throat, how did that happen, laughter all round...

fail fast...learn quickly...

what is everyone else in the world studying, I have no idea....

what I practice is so dull and slow, its as if nothing is going on...

I know nothing of dancing Gods, and yin or yang...( this is Scotland pal...)

all I know is the space that opens, the absence of thought, body moves from where I do not know, I try to follow this unfolding, emerging intelligence, quieter the mind, the more freely this body flows. How is this even possible. Its a mystery to me.

Body quiet, mind quiet, grabs, sticks, punches and kicks, why is everyone moving so slowly, this is a child's game.. but wait there is pressure, increasing, tighter, damn that old man, he waits and waits and then wham...bokken cracks the back of your head.. laughter, never mind...the study deepens

no one stays for long around here, too boring, just the old timers..disintegrating into emptiness.....

Rich

[emptycloud]

Why call it anything.

...

...my aikido training...

Make up your mind man.

[Bodywork]

I know nothing of dancing Gods, and yin or yang...( this is Scotland pal...)

Yet you are wearing Japanese pajamas and doing an art form
The real answer is.
"Dan, I don't know what the founder of my art was doing or what he meant in how the art I am studying was meant to be practiced."
This... is particularly interesting in light of the fact that you freely admit your own practice is a mystery to yourself.

How is this even possible. Its a mystery to me.
Rich

I know what I am doing.
I know what Ueshiba was doing.
It seems wiser to understand what one is spending time doing.
Anyway, I think we are spending too much time on individual practice. I am uninterested in one man's pursuit of an entire art. The discussion should be bigger than that.

[WVMark]

what I practice is so dull and slow, its as if nothing is going on...

I know nothing of dancing Gods, and yin or yang...( this is Scotland pal...)

Rich

1. Aikido Today Magazine; #31 Dec.93/ Jan. 94
Interview of Henry Kono sensei by Virginia Mayhew and Susan Perry.
ATM: When you had conversations like these with O'sensei, what would you talk about?
HK: Well, I would usually ask him why the rest of us couldn't do what he could. there were many other teachers, all doing aikido. But he was doing it differently - doing something differently. His movement was so clean!
ATM: How would O'sensei answer your questions about what he was doing?
HK: He would say that I didn't understand yin and yang [in and yo]. So, now I've made it my life work to study yin and yang. That's what O'sensei told me to do.

So, Ueshiba's physical skills and abilities were different. When Kono asked why they were so different, Ueshiba answered ... "I didn't understand yin and yang".

Ueshiba is seen in demonstrations time and again, twirling his shortened spear calling it the Dance of the Gods.

Ueshiba commonly had people push and pull on him in all sorts of different ways.

Modern Aikido ... lacks all of this ... and more.

I really don't know what you're practicing, but it sounds like you aren't training the founder's aikido. In your own words, you don't know what yin/yang mean or the Dance of the Gods. This isn't about you as there is a whole world of people out there who were never shown these things, either. Their teachers told them what they were told. And the Japanese shihan coming out of Tokyo ... many of them didn't get it either. Those that did ... well, how many of their students started to equal them in skills/abilities?

There is a proven, verifiable training methodology to pass on Ueshiba's skills and abilities. If you're training aikido and you aren't starting to stand out from everyone else in five years ... something's wrong. By starting to stand out, I mean that when you play with judo or bjj people, they should have a much harder time with you than anyone else. Doesn't mean you're going to excel or be unstoppable but you definitely should be giving them a much harder time of it than anyone else ... by just training Ueshiba's aikido.

Ueshiba's aikido is a body changing method, not a technique oriented martial art as Kisshomaru created. If you think going to BJJ and you're going to use this or that technique ... you're not doing Ueshiba's aikido. Joint locks weren't techniques but part of the body changing method of training. Ueshiba truly meant what he said to Kono. Yin/yang is a foundation for aiki. No yin/yang, no aiki. Ueshiba showed his understanding outside of techniques and waza by having people push on him and remaning unmoved. Why? He knew the secret of aiki. Body changing method.

If you don't understand how yin/yang creates skills and abilities like Ueshiba had ... you aren't doing Ueshiba's aikido. If you have to move and use timing to replicate yin/yang, you aren't doing Ueshiba's aikido.

Modern Aikido has a lot going for it. There are millions training it. It has validity to them. However, I think they do a huge disservice to Kisshomaru. It's his picture that should be on their shomen. He not only held together his vision of aikido (when he really didn't want to be part of aikido), but he grew aikido to a worldwide audience right after World War 2. That wasn't an easy task. He created Modern Aikido. It should be to him that aikido people point and uphold. Morihei Ueshiba's aikido is vastly different.