modern aikido

[emptycloud]

standard ki aikido ki testing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpXZDedIZw

[WVMark]

standard ki aikido ki testing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpXZDedIZw

As your earlier posted video, it's been answered already. Let me repost the reply below.

Push/pull exercises as a test of structure are gold and one of my favourite things to train but all we've got here is a really tense guy who is bracing into his front and back legs as he's pull/pushed (see how long his stance is and how he trembles throughout his whole body from the tension?) The teacher isn't much better, he gets much lighter force than the other guy (of course!) but you can see him shifting his hips and bracing against the force, all the meanwhile getting lost in heady abstractions babbling about balance and levels of presence which aren't even slightly reflected by his body. I can take anyone off the street and get them to brace against my force like that.

Matthew

[mrtoes]

Hi Richard

In my opinion the second video you posted is better and more honest though the chap being tested is still bracing and buckling against the force to varying degrees. That said and perhaps because it's a test (black belt ki test or something?) some of the pushes look a bit quick and sharp, above what he can deal with. For me push testing is all about going to the boundary of what someone can deal with and then allowing them to build upon their intent to withstand that little bit more - and it needs to be done more slowly until you're at the point where you can be "on" straight away. It's also excellent feedback that you can go and use in your solo training. It's cool they're doing this testing even though I don't really understand all of what they're doing, one thing I will say is that it doesn't look like they've been given the tools necessary to develop connected bodies. If you don't have that, all the push testing in the world won't help you.

Cheers,

Matthew

[emptycloud]

Hi Richard

In my opinion the second video you posted is better and more honest though the chap being tested is still bracing and buckling against the force to varying degrees. That said and perhaps because it's a test (black belt ki test or something?) some of the pushes look a bit quick and sharp, above what he can deal with. For me push testing is all about going to the boundary of what someone can deal with and then allowing them to build upon their intent to withstand that little bit more - and it needs to be done more slowly until you're at the point where you can be "on" straight away. It's also excellent feedback that you can go and use in your solo training. It's cool they're doing this testing even though I don't really understand all of what they're doing, one thing I will say is that it doesn't look like they've been given the tools necessary to develop connected bodies. If you don't have that, all the push testing in the world won't help you.

Cheers,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

The kind of testing shown in the videos is good for beginners. It does raise some interesting points about technique and throwing people around.
You often hear the phrase " he was thrown around like a rag doll " this is apparently what Ueshiba did to Tohei.
However if we practice immovable body, un-liftable body, un-bendable arm etc, which are easily taught and achieved, then how can anyone be thrown like a rag-doll.

I am not a heavy guy, in fact I am a light weight, but if I do not want to be thrown then I cannot be thrown. I can be tripped,tricked,hauled around and heaved but not thrown.
So the KI exercises really show us that in a practice like aikido the relationship is collaborative, the uke always throws himself, they take ukemi.

Another aspect of the KI exercises is that it tests attention.. with something like un-bendable arm, you can play with peoples attention. There are little gaps in attention, at these points the arm is easily bent. So the exercises train attention in the body.

In my experience the Ki tests are just part of a vast training curriculum... along with tai chi, yoga, meditation, ukemi, cutting, striking, cardio, nutrition, alexander, and so on.. put all this together and you start have some sense of connectedness in the body and sensitivity to others peoples structure and attention..

Rich

[mrtoes]

Ah... Are you sure you can't be thrown Richard? That's a bold claim. Have you tested this with guys who know what they're doing? In all seriousness I know people who WILL man handle you and throw you about like a rag doll I regularly wrestle stand up with a guy who is connected, knows what he's doing and outweights me by 25kg or so - staying on your feet ain't no joke! Add in strikes and it's even harder because dealing with punches opens up your defenses and you don't have the time to spend working your way through things. I can survive for a while but am I unthrowable... God no! Do you train like this?

It is possible to become so connected that you're extremely hard to throw, trip, heave or haul around... No-one on any of the videos you've posted here is even close to these qualities, they are tense tight and locked up and brace against force which anyone who has done a bit of wrestling will use to put them on their asses. The only aikidoka I've met who were anywhere on the road to this... Train what Dan's been talking (past you) about on this thread. Seeing all the videos you have posted and everything you have said about training... I apologise if I seem presumptuous but I really don't think that you have it and the reason you don't know is because I don't think you've really tested it but are content to operate in your own little bubble. Which you're obviously happy to do so that's fine. No offence meant Rich just saying it as I see it

Anyway I don't think I have anything else to offer here... Everyone is happy with their training. Good times

Matthew

[emptycloud]

Ah... Are you sure you can't be thrown Richard? That's a bold claim. Have you tested this with guys who know what they're doing? In all seriousness I know people who WILL man handle you and throw you about like a rag doll I regularly wrestle stand up with a guy who is connected, knows what he's doing and outweights me by 25kg or so - staying on your feet ain't no joke! Add in strikes and it's even harder because dealing with punches opens up your defenses and you don't have the time to spend working your way through things. I can survive for a while but am I unthrowable... God no! Do you train like this?

It is possible to become so connected that you're extremely hard to throw, trip, heave or haul around... No-one on any of the videos you've posted here is even close to these qualities, they are tense tight and locked up and brace against force which anyone who has done a bit of wrestling will use to put them on their asses. The only aikidoka I've met who were anywhere on the road to this... Train what Dan's been talking (past you) about on this thread. Seeing all the videos you have posted and everything you have said about training... I apologise if I seem presumptuous but I really don't think that you have it and the reason you don't know is because I don't think you've really tested it but are content to operate in your own little bubble. Which you're obviously happy to do so that's fine. No offence meant Rich just saying it as I see it

Anyway I don't think I have anything else to offer here... Everyone is happy with their training. Good times

Matthew

As I said I can be tripped,and heaved and manipulated etc. I train will old school judoka who regularly dump me on my arse. I train with tai chi guys who trip me up endlessly. What I am referring to is aikido and the elegant projections that you see in the art. This kind of throw is not possible without cooperation, you cannot be thrown like you see in most aikido vids without cooperation.

The judo guys I train with and the tai chi guys can't throw me in the same manner as the aikido guys I train with. The aikido is based on a relationship. The other stuff is a fight, we wrestle for advantage, its messy and great fun. The unliftable body stuff helps to frustrate the judo and tai chi guys as does allowing yourself to become very light and then suddenly heavy. Its a game. I

To overstate there is Aikido and ukemi practice and there is fighting/wrestling/playing around they are different beasts.. Thats not to say aikido folks aren't capable of looking after themselves many of them are half mad scary..especially the one who are now in there late 60's it seems, they don't fuck around.

Our class is split into dynamics flowing ukemi aikido and applied self protection...one is very fluid and drawn out and serves a purpose, the other is the opposite and serves another purpose. The two approaches are not confused but one can become the other in an instant, this makes for a very unnerving experience designed to produce a heightened attention to what going on. Your're never quite sure whats going on.

The videos I post are not often videos I endorse, I post them to see what other folks make of the video and then I learn from that. I seldom post a vid and say this guy is the biz... Its an education device for my training..

Rich

[mrtoes]

So you're not unthrowable at all - except as part of aikido throws which only work via co-operation? You stop co-operating and then cannot be thrown? That is not the same thing as "if I do not want to be thrown then I cannot be thrown"

Aikido throws are manifestations of spiral power, what makes them work is the body method. If you don't have the body method then all you have is truly terrible applications (even by the standards of TMA) that yes, won't work without co-operation.

Matthew

[emptycloud]

So you're not unthrowable at all - except as part of aikido throws which only work via co-operation? You stop co-operating and then cannot be thrown? That is not the same thing as "if I do not want to be thrown then I cannot be thrown"

Aikido throws are manifestations of spiral power, what makes them work is the body method. If you don't have the body method then all you have is truly terrible applications (even by the standards of TMA) that yes, won't work without co-operation.

Matthew

In aikido you often see little folk apparently throwing big folk over acres of mat space.. that only happens in aikido because of the practice of taking ukemi, its a relationship within a context.

If the uke does not produce the ukemi he will be left with some awful injury, but because he likes to take ukemi, he projects himself into space with a some added expression of power from the nage.

There is no way a little person can throw a big person 10 metres through the air and across room against the big person will. They might be able to trip, leverage, trick or haul the big person around, over and onto the ground with skill, but launch them them 5ft into the air and out across the dojo..

We maybe talking sematics on what a throw is.. taking ukemi and throwing people in a tussle are two different things.

I am unthrowable in the first instance, I produce ukemi if I wish, I take the fall, its a context of specific study. In the second, I lose the fight and am thrown to the ground not launched across the room.

I am supposed to be working right now, so my response is a wee bit rapid.. sorry about that. I think we beginning to iron out the creases of wordy meaning.

Rich

ps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw

even with the founder you see people performing ukemi.. throwing themselves.. if they do not put the energy into it, then nage has to do something else but that then changes the context of the uke/nage relationship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeFw4L7EnAs

Sometimes I think its the uke that should be graded not the nage, the uke does all the hard work, takes the biggest risk..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78

Without ukemi things look different. Ukemi is just a skill of throwing oneself at the opportune moment, if nage lets you out that is..Ukemi is the hardest part of aikido training because as you get older it gets pretty demanding.

[GrahamB]

Aikido threads will never die. Ki just keeps extending......

[wiesiek]

hope
that, you will throw experts around, using only the Ki -is ubiquitous

[WVMark]

In aikido you often see little folk apparently throwing big folk over acres of mat space.. that only happens in aikido because of the practice of taking ukemi, its a relationship within a context.

If the uke does not produce the ukemi he will be left with some awful injury, but because he likes to take ukemi, he projects himself into space with a some added expression of power from the nage.

There is no way a little person can throw a big person 10 metres through the air and across room against the big person will. They might be able to trip, leverage, trick or haul the big person around, over and onto the ground with skill, but launch them them 5ft into the air and out across the dojo..

We maybe talking sematics on what a throw is.. taking ukemi and throwing people in a tussle are two different things.

I am unthrowable in the first instance, I produce ukemi if I wish, I take the fall, its a context of specific study. In the second, I lose the fight and am thrown to the ground not launched across the room.

I am supposed to be working right now, so my response is a wee bit rapid.. sorry about that. I think we beginning to iron out the creases of wordy meaning.

Rich

ps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw

even with the founder you see people performing ukemi.. throwing themselves.. if they do not put the energy into it, then nage has to do something else but that then changes the context of the uke/nage relationship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeFw4L7EnAs

Sometimes I think its the uke that should be graded not the nage, the uke does all the hard work, takes the biggest risk..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78

Without ukemi things look different. Ukemi is just a skill of throwing oneself at the opportune moment, if nage lets you out that is..Ukemi is the hardest part of aikido training because as you get older it gets pretty demanding.

All in regards to Modern Aikido. Which is something completely different than Ueshiba's aikido. Yet another instance of where the two diverged is ukemi. Modern Aikido teaches how to roll and fall. Parts of each class are dedicated to this. Ueshiba never taught that. He expected his students to already know how to safely roll/fall and that wasn't part of his class, nor was it part of learning aikido. Students had to learn roll/fall because of the power coming from Ueshiba, not because of any basis of relationship between uke/nage. Your posts don't show that you understand Ueshiba's aikido. Maybe you're doing that on purpose, like you state about posting vids. Just tossing stuff out there to get people to respond so you can learn and educate yourself. Not really a moral kind of thing to do, IMO.

The kind of testing shown in the videos is good for beginners. It does raise some interesting points about technique and throwing people around.
You often hear the phrase " he was thrown around like a rag doll " this is apparently what Ueshiba did to Tohei.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public ... i-tohei-1/

Ueshiba tossed people like rag dolls ... in other words, those people could do nothing to stop Ueshiba. You should do a lot more research before posting about Ueshiba. The link above is Tohei's own words. It's an enlightening read on how someone who was tossing higher level judoka couldn't do anything to Ueshiba and had absolutely no clue what Ueshiba was doing.

[emptycloud]

In aikido you often see little folk apparently throwing big folk over acres of mat space.. that only happens in aikido because of the practice of taking ukemi, its a relationship within a context.

If the uke does not produce the ukemi he will be left with some awful injury, but because he likes to take ukemi, he projects himself into space with a some added expression of power from the nage.

There is no way a little person can throw a big person 10 metres through the air and across room against the big person will. They might be able to trip, leverage, trick or haul the big person around, over and onto the ground with skill, but launch them them 5ft into the air and out across the dojo..

We maybe talking sematics on what a throw is.. taking ukemi and throwing people in a tussle are two different things.

I am unthrowable in the first instance, I produce ukemi if I wish, I take the fall, its a context of specific study. In the second, I lose the fight and am thrown to the ground not launched across the room.

I am supposed to be working right now, so my response is a wee bit rapid.. sorry about that. I think we beginning to iron out the creases of wordy meaning.

Rich

ps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw

even with the founder you see people performing ukemi.. throwing themselves.. if they do not put the energy into it, then nage has to do something else but that then changes the context of the uke/nage relationship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeFw4L7EnAs

Sometimes I think its the uke that should be graded not the nage, the uke does all the hard work, takes the biggest risk..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78

Without ukemi things look different. Ukemi is just a skill of throwing oneself at the opportune moment, if nage lets you out that is..Ukemi is the hardest part of aikido training because as you get older it gets pretty demanding.

All in regards to Modern Aikido. Which is something completely different than Ueshiba's aikido. Yet another instance of where the two diverged is ukemi. Modern Aikido teaches how to roll and fall. Parts of each class are dedicated to this. Ueshiba never taught that. He expected his students to already know how to safely roll/fall and that wasn't part of his class, nor was it part of learning aikido. Students had to learn roll/fall because of the power coming from Ueshiba, not because of any basis of relationship between uke/nage. Your posts don't show that you understand Ueshiba's aikido. Maybe you're doing that on purpose, like you state about posting vids. Just tossing stuff out there to get people to respond so you can learn and educate yourself. Not really a moral kind of thing to do, IMO.

The kind of testing shown in the videos is good for beginners. It does raise some interesting points about technique and throwing people around.
You often hear the phrase " he was thrown around like a rag doll " this is apparently what Ueshiba did to Tohei.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public ... i-tohei-1/

Ueshiba tossed people like rag dolls ... in other words, those people could do nothing to stop Ueshiba. You should do a lot more research before posting about Ueshiba. The link above is Tohei's own words. It's an enlightening read on how someone who was tossing higher level judoka couldn't do anything to Ueshiba and had absolutely no clue what Ueshiba was doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35a1seiaWhg

Tohei hardly deals with this lump never mind tossing higher level judoka.
(a teaching certificate off Ueshiba, probably a good earner back in the day, travel the world, nice life, whose gonna hassle the old man, just sign the goddam certificate)

If you were already expected to know how to break fall then you wouldn't need to learn it in Ueshiba's class.

Ueshiba was not taking in complete newbies, if he was presumably he would of taught break falls but he didn't have too. Why waste time teaching something you don't have to.. Your point is pointless.

My point is you cannot launch a grown man five feet into the air and several feet across a room without his cooperation. Heck, you can hardly throw a small kid that far against their will.

Grab a tubby 10yr old kid (a real wriggler) and see how far you can throw them...not very

Rich

[WVMark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35a1seiaWhg

Tohei hardly deals with this lump never mind tossing higher level judoka.
(a teaching certificate off Ueshiba, probably a good earner back in the day, travel the world, nice life, whose gonna hassle the old man, just sign the goddam certificate)

If you were already expected to know how to break fall then you wouldn't need to learn it in Ueshiba's class.

Ueshiba was not taking in complete newbies, if he was presumably he would of taught break falls but he didn't have too. Why waste time teaching something you don't have to.. Your point is pointless.

My point is you cannot launch a grown man five feet into the air and several feet across a room without his cooperation. Heck, you can hardly throw a small kid that far against their will.

Grab a tubby 10yr old kid (a real wriggler) and see how far you can throw them...not very

Rich

Research. Read about Tohei's visit to Hawai'i. Talk to people that trained with Tohei. He wasn't a push over.

Your points lack knowledge, research, and experience. The only point worth noting is that YOU have never experienced launching a grown man without cooperation using Ueshiba's aikido. Not that it hasn't been done ... It has. Modern Aikido lacks the power, skill, and ability to accomplish this. Ueshiba's aikido does not.

[emptycloud]

nobody said Tohei was a push over. The guys I train with had a teacher for many years who was graded by Tohei from the 50's onward.

In the vids of Ueshiba one would expect to see some startling stuff.. but we don't.. why..?

[Zonker]

Aikido threads will never die. Ki just keeps extending......

LOL!