IP/ Aiki Striking

[Finny]

I'm glad I got it right snafu - as I said it seemed pretty clear to me

Bao - I absolutely was NOT talking about anything to do with the 'surface of the belly' - in fact I specifically said so. That a developed dantian can be felt on the surface of the belly should be obvious, no?

Do you truly think Sam Chin doesn't 'connect his whole body's structure to his dantian'? but instead does 'what yogis do'??

I'd love to see you educate him on the 'true nature of taiji' someday.. good luck with making him hop

[Bhassler]

You're not going to accomplish "connecting your whole bodies structure" to a tiny spot inside your body to produce unusual power.
In fact, you never have.
Defend it.
What is your "whole bodies structure connected to a tiny spot."
What is the physical nature of that structure?
What is the physical nature of your tiny spot?
What then, moves what?
How?
Supporting what?
You are confusing two very different methods and making it sound absolute.

Telling me i confused people and I "fooled them.", is insulting both them and me. I think it is easy to sit and insult me and call me a fraud while sitting on your ass.Try it in person sometime. There are better ways to debate a subject.

Well, there are some really famous masters (some of the people on this board know who I'm talking about) who say that Bao is exactly right. What more defense could you want?

[Bao]

You are confusing two very different methods and making it sound absolute.

Telling me i confused people and I "fooled them.", is insulting both them and me. I think it is easy to sit and insult me and call me a fraud while sitting on your ass.Try it in person sometime. There are better ways to debate a subject.

Sorry that you take it that way. I am not saying you did anything. I don't know what and how you teach. I was taking about it on a general level. But I do think that it would be natural to have a different interpretation or a different way to teach the subject when you have a different tradition in your background as a Japanese tradition. Hara is not the same as Dantian.
... Actually, I prefer much more to speak about "Hara" before dantian when we use the center of the body in the martial arts. But I also do the mistake sometimes, like saying that we compress the dantian when we strike or issue force. It would be better to say Hara or just "stomach", when the dantian is "only" the center of this mass.

That a developed dantian can be felt on the surface of the belly should be obvious, no?

No, it can not.

Do you truly think Sam Chin doesn't 'connect his whole body's structure to his dantian'? but instead does 'what yogis do'??

One thing does not need to exclude the other. I am not saying that so called dantian practice that leads to something you can feel on the surface is bad. I am just saying that it's not the dantian that is practiced. The practice in itself and what is accomplished with it can still be good. I am not saying that what he does, or what Dan does is wrong or bad. I am not even saying that it's not good dantian practice. I am just saying that it also can develop something else that is not dantian and have nothing to do with the dantian. So you shouldn't confuse side effects with the real goal of the practice. When you feel the stomach of Chen xiaowang, you don't feel any dantian, but something developed as a side effect of the practice. It doesn't mean that it's bad or good practice.

I'd love to see you educate him on the 'true nature of taiji' someday.. good luck with making him hop

I don't know if he is interested in the nature of Taiji as he has another, very similar art, but with a bad spelling. I could try to make them change their homemade transcribation into pinyin, but I am not sure they are interested in something that doesn't look like McDojo...
... And I am not sure that anyone could make him hop. It's not something you just do. It's something you can do if someone gives up his mass and balance. People who have a developed root won't do it and some people naturally never will. Dantian, qi etc really doesn't need to come into play. I don't know why you would want to make someone hop in the first place... ? Seems like the last choice after many better things to do with someone...

Well, there are some really famous masters (some of the people on this board know who I'm talking about) who say that Bao is exactly right. What more defense could you want?

Thanks. Someone who tries to read and understand instead of being sensitive.

[Bao]

Dan,

I saw your post you deleted and was going to reply it. Again, I am not here to insult anyone. That's not my intention.

I know that I didn't answer your questions well. If you want to know about my thoughts on body mechanics connected to the dantian, you can read what I have to say here:

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... taijiquan/

[Finny]

That a developed dantian can be felt on the surface of the belly should be obvious, no?

No, it can not.

For someone who frequently insists that folks not dismiss other views on things, you're being awfully absolutist here - what would you say to the Dai Xinyi folks who develop (what they call) the dantian in squatting monkey, that straight up IS able to be felt on the surface of the torso?

Do you truly think Sam Chin doesn't 'connect his whole body's structure to his dantian'? but instead does 'what yogis do'??

I'd love to see you educate him on the 'true nature of taiji' someday.. good luck with making him hop

I don't know if he is interested in the nature of Taiji as he has another, very similar art, but with a bad spelling. I could try to make them change their homemade transcribation into pinyin, but I am not sure they are interested in something that doesn't look like McDojo...
... And I am not sure that anyone could make him hop. It's not something you just do. It's something you can do if someone gives up his mass and balance. People who have a developed root won't do it and some people naturally never will. Dantian, qi etc really doesn't need to come into play. I don't know why you would want to make someone hop in the first place... ? Seems like the last choice after many better things to do with someone...

He makes frequent reference to taiji (not taijiquan) - and can clearly manifest what he says physically, at any given contact point.

I believe the different romanisation is a result of the fact that his family have been in malaysia for a long time, and perhaps also the hakka dialect

Well, there are some really famous masters (some of the people on this board know who I'm talking about) who say that Bao is exactly right. What more defense could you want?

Thanks. Someone who tries to read and understand instead of being sensitive.

I'm not at all sensitive - perhaps you're referring to Dan - and it seems like it was you who was struggling to read and understand..

[Bao]

That a developed dantian can be felt on the surface of the belly should be obvious, no?

No, it can not.

For someone who frequently insists that folks not dismiss other views on things, you're being awfully absolutist here - what would you say to the Dai Xinyi folks who develop (what they call) the dantian in squatting monkey, that straight up IS able to be felt on the surface of the torso?

Oh... Maybe I am...
I am not saying anything about the results of their practice. I am just saying that what is felt on the outside is not the dantian. Now, of course I am using a very traditional view on what is the dantian, how to define it. But I believe that you should be very strict with definitions so you don't confuse things. In Taoist tradition the lower dantian is just an empty spot, It's just the center of the center, but also a spot you can feel physically feel when you relax and focus. It can not grow, become bigger, harder or anything and it can only be felt by the practitioner. I know that there are other definitions in some arts, but I don't agree that we should redefine the term. Like Qian Zhaohong spoke about three layers, or balls in the body, the largest one incorporated even the back of the dantian and the muscles around that area. It's a good model for how the strength and power comes from the dantian and through the back. But this area is still not the dantian. That is why I also said that it's better to use other words, as Hara, instead of the dantian. Then we can all agree about what happens.

He makes frequent reference to taiji (not taijiquan) - and can clearly manifest what he says physically, at any given contact point.

I believe the different romanisation is a result of the fact that his family have been in malaysia for a long time, and perhaps also the hakka dialect

Yes I've heard about that. And if I didn't hang around here on the RSF I would still believe that it was homemade McDojo crap and I wouldn't take any more notice of it. They should definitely change the spelling, it's bad for the marketing of a serious martial art.

I'm not at all sensitive - perhaps you're referring to Dan - and it seems like it was you who was struggling to read and understand..

Most people are sensitive here. It's just a matter of degrees. If I felt insulted I would be sensitive as well. And yes, I am struggling to understand many things. That is why I write and ask questions on the board. Because I am genuinely interested about what you and other guys do. I am eager to learn more about it. I am not here to teach or state any truth. I put up my thoughts and ideas here because I want to test them and see if other people have other views. Now some people seem to have other definitions on what they call the dantian and how this is developed. Fine, then I know about this and I accept that there are other views on this matter. If it works for you, it's fine.

[jaime_g]

It can not grow, become bigger, harder or anything and it can only be felt by the practitioner

Wang Fengming allows people feel his dantien...As Dan and many others do.

https://www.facebook.com/centre.wudang/ ... =2&theater

[Finny]

Well said Bao - I was going to mention how mix pointed out.. in his view (I hope I'm not misquoting him) the taoist dantian =/= the cma dantian

fwiw - I don't do any cma these days.. only a koryu. I'd like to get back to some sort of unarmed training, but have some serious injuries that have prevented me from doing so. Just starting to get back to some sort of shape though - was thinking about trying out Fu Zhongwen's taiji

[Bodywork]

Dan,
I saw your post you deleted and was going to reply it. Again, I am not here to insult anyone. That's not my intention.
I know that I didn't answer your questions well. If you want to know about my thoughts on body mechanics connected to the dantian, you can read what I have to say here:
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... taijiquan/

Don't bother answering the questions.
Ya know....there are many of us here and in the Japanese community who are meeting, training together, sharing information and doing so respectfully and earnestly. Your dialogue with me was not how it gets done. I remind you again that on any given day, your understanding is in your own hands. Not something you read, or notes you took. Another reason to be polite in this world- as we don't always know who we are talking too sometimes.

I took the time to start reading your blog. I understand what model you are copying and trying to explicate. It is clear that YOU DON'T. Whether you wrote it with purposeful intention, or true belief, really doesn't matter. It reads more like some training notes rather than true understanding. Either way that sort of muddy information means a dialogue isn't beneficial.....to anyone.

Good luck in your training
Dan

[windwalker]

Hi amor,
A lot of people have made similar comparisons between Salahuddin Muhammad and Dan Harden. They do share a lot of similarities in their approach to aiki, especially for pragmatic applications.

A LOT of people?
Who are THESE people?
I see no comparison whatsoever.

you mention discourse but really have offered none except to refute what others have said by asking who said what instead of
taking it as a given and pointing out the differences. which would be interesting to read.

It is inevitable that people will compare their understandings of your methods to others, whether they'er correct or not its their perception.
You mention that students can not offer correct or good insights into anthers work yet use them as testimonials of your own work.
You say the the teacher in the OP clip uses the same verbiage to describe his work, and then say its not his.

Granted he may not be doing what he is describing or feeling he's doing, others can decide this, since its your work that was mentioned
should you chose to you can point out the differences. You've already said its not. Ok its not.
but again it would be interesting to read why you feel this so since its your work he is being compared to.

[Bao]

Well... at least I gave it a try. ... I guess I should know better.

... sharing information and doing so respectfully and earnestly. Your dialogue with me was not how it gets done....Another reason to be polite in this world-...

Funny... as you are not trying to have a dialogue ... and that you are not known for being polite or showing people respect.
... Very well, so be it.

I took the time to start reading your blog. I understand what model you are copying and trying to explicate. It is clear that YOU DON'T. Whether you wrote it with purposeful intention, or true belief, really doesn't matter. It reads more like some training notes rather than true understanding. Either way that sort of muddy information means a dialogue isn't beneficial.....to anyone.

It's easy to say that something is bad or muddy without explaining further.
Every word and thought is my own and everything is my own way to describe my own experience. And it's all based on practical practice.
...So copying? Not really. But I guess I should be sensitive and return with an attack on your work. Funny, but I don't feel for spending more time arguing.

So you dont like my blog? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I allready know you practice well. So good luck with your courses and your marketing and everything.

[littlepanda]

slightly off topic

regarding dantien

some say you first have to create a dantien and then connect it to your hands and legs

others say creating a dantien and connecting it to your hands and legs is a simultaneous process

which is right?

also does the presence of a dantien mean the practitioner has a connected body?

would someone clarify

[willywrong]

It can not grow, become bigger, harder or anything and it can only be felt by the practitioner

Wang Fengming allows people feel his dantien...As Dan and many others do.

I would presume perhaps wrongly that this is men feeling other men's bellies. I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly imagine you could learn from this.

[littlepanda]

Just by seeing the first video...Dan doesnt hit that way neither moves like this guy. I really would like to see him hitting that way, it would be way less painful

I see clear flaws in that guy movements that I would never to be able to use on Dan's body...

would you point out the flaws in that guy's movement.
when you say a practitioner is disconnected, do you mean the knees and hips are unstable when there is load on the body?
what difference do you see(in a video) in a connected body and a disconnected body?

[jaime_g]

It can not grow, become bigger, harder or anything and it can only be felt by the practitioner

Wang Fengming allows people feel his dantien...As Dan and many others do.

I would presume perhaps wrongly that this is men feeling other men's bellies. I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly imagine you could learn from this.

Maybe a little, maybe a lot. Feel what is moving, how is moving, how affects the movement of other body parts...You always will know more than before

would you point out the flaws in that guy's movement.
when you say a practitioner is disconnected, do you mean the knees and hips are unstable when there is load on the body?
what difference do you see(in a video) in a connected body and a disconnected body?

Look closely at his legs anytime he punchs. Strike like a battering ram is good, but if there is nothing past the head of the ram...