4th Dan Aikido challenges Turkish Wrestler champion

[Itten]

Wow Rich, nearly 50! Wait till you hit 62 and tell me how that feels. By the way Graham I'm sometimes in England, we could meet up and swop some aikido for tai chi, you know 2 styles that don't often do whats on tyne label ;-)

[GrahamB]

Wow Rich, nearly 50! Wait till you hit 62 and tell me how that feels. By the way Graham I'm sometimes in England, we could meet up and swop some aikido for tai chi, you know 2 styles that don't often do whats on tyne label ;-)

I don't know any Aikido - you'd be better off with Rich!

I'll rassle you tho'.

[wiesiek]

well i`m 58 and and have to confess, that after 6 h. work with chisels /i carving in the wood recently/
my wrist crying and fingers going numb when, workin` with sword in the afternoon...
recovery time is the clue.
qigong and hot-tube with lot of salt is my only hope .

[wiesiek]

aaaa
4th dan aikido guy demonstrated 6kyu level, from my school,
-know how to fall

[Ba-men]

IMHO what Ueshiba meant was that 99% of the effectiveness of Aikido technique relies/ are based on Atemi. Not the sheer number of techniques in Aikido's repertoire.
Just my 5 Cent...

I have a few friends who do Aikido (some are Detroit police officers) From the many discussions on Aikido and Daito-ryu IMO U are correct. Yet, few practice that aspect of the art. The dojo these guy practice in I've seen blood on the floor from them actually going at. (Aikido??? ya I know... WTF?) The use of Atemi waza and thus the opponent's presumed defense against it (blocks, parry's and shielding) become in many cases "gifts" for the Aikidoka. What I see at this Dojo looks in my mind, to be what I think effective Bagua or Taiji is . I.e. " strike, if one doesn't block they get hit.. if they block, then the Aikidoka attaches to the defense and the rest of the story is what we have all seen as standard Aikido. (look nasty to me...)

[middleway]

strike, if one doesn't block they get hit.. if they block, then the Aikidoka attaches to the defense and the rest of the story is what we have all seen as standard Aikido.

This is a good summary of how Aikido can be utilised in a more effective manner.

One big problem i see in Aikido is the 'standardisation of timing'. This is apparent in almost all Aikido Demos you see and what i mean by that is there are no tempo, beat or rythm changes in their practice. People sort of silently agree of a speed and way of performing then crack on. Which is fine in some respects ... but practicing with constant tempo, speed and rythm changes (even sometimes changing speed within a single beat) would really help Aikidoka get some more functionality in my opinion and experience.

Cheers.

[GrahamB]

"No, I'm not getting punched in the face!!!! I'm attaching to your defence you halfwit!"

[Ba-men]

strike, if one doesn't block they get hit.. if they block, then the Aikidoka attaches to the defense and the rest of the story is what we have all seen as standard Aikido.

This is a good summary of how Aikido can be utilised in a more effective manner.

One big problem i see in Aikido is the 'standardisation of timing'. This is apparent in almost all Aikido Demos you see and what i mean by that is there are no tempo, beat or rythm changes in their practice. People sort of silently agree of a speed and way of performing then crack on. Which is fine in some respects ... but practicing with constant tempo, speed and rythm changes (even sometimes changing speed within a single beat) would really help Aikidoka get some more functionality in my opinion and experience.

Cheers.

Good observation. Could it be a residual vestige of some classical bushido teaching on the concepts of Maai and Hyoshi (distance and timing) in relation to an attack that we are missing or have lost. The Japanese are/were very methodical in their approach to MA. Over the years I've seen a lot of classical Japanese MA approach the concepts of Maai and hyoshi just as u have described Just like you, I thought ... not practical, nor realistic, but I kept seeing it over and over. (Right now I'm thinking about those knife defense that one see's that look impractical where the attacker attacks at a distance in a prescribe overhead attack.) I guess what I'm getting at is "that I'm not sure whats really supposed to go on there." If I believe it's just bad technique then I run the risk of missing something. Is it bad technique? Or (including many a instructor) missing something metaphysical on responding to attack using Maai and Hyoshi. I can't put my finger on it. What base skills does one learn practicing responses to an attack? One reads the emotions of the attacker, look for "tells" that give a clue as to what the person is going to do. Right? Initiative, tempo, timing ... mastership of these is what really makes one skilled isn't it? Some traditional Chinese arts deal with this extensively. Some have a stock tool box that they employ and approach distance, tempo, initiative and timing no matter what (some don't) I'm thinking their was at one time a well known metaphysical approach to all this in relation to an attack in Japanese bushido and we are seeing it and not knowing what we are looking at.

Then again due the fact that I question everything, deconstruct everything, I might be reading to much into it (and it might be bad technique from Monkey see, Monkey do)

[wiesiek]

..." what Ueshiba meant was that 99% of the effectiveness of Aikido technique relies/ are based on Atemi...."

if this statament is the truth
4th degree should`t go for pure wreslling match!

[middleway]

Good observation. Could it be a residual vestige of some classical bushido teaching on the concepts of Maai and Hyoshi (distance and timing) in relation to an attack that we are missing or have lost. The Japanese are/were very methodical in their approach to MA. Over the years I've seen a lot of classical Japanese MA approach the concepts of Maai and hyoshi just as u have described Just like you, I thought ... not practical, nor realistic, but I kept seeing it over and over. (Right now I'm thinking about those knife defense that one see's that look impractical where the attacker attacks at a distance in a prescribe overhead attack.) I guess what I'm getting at is "that I'm not sure whats really supposed to go on there." If I believe it's just bad technique then I run the risk of missing something. Is it bad technique? Or (including many a instructor) missing something metaphysical on responding to attack using Maai and Hyoshi. I can't put my finger on it. What base skills does one learn practicing responses to an attack? One reads the emotions of the attacker, look for "tells" that give a clue as to what the person is going to do. Right? Initiative, tempo, timing ... mastership of these is what really makes one skilled isn't it? Some traditional Chinese arts deal with this extensively. Some have a stock tool box that they employ and approach distance, tempo, initiative and timing no matter what (some don't) I'm thinking their was at one time a well known metaphysical approach to all this in relation to an attack in Japanese bushido and we are seeing it and not knowing what we are looking at.

Then again due the fact that I question everything, deconstruct everything, I might be reading to much into it (and it might be bad technique from Monkey see, Monkey do)

Maai and Hyoshi are so fundamental to Kenjutsu or any classical weaponry in Japanese Martial Arts that it most definitely carried through to some arts like Aikido. I studied Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu pretty extensively and Maai is SUPER important in that art. Your observation on the methodological approach to MA in Japan is well thought out i think. However, if we look across the breadth of JMA Sensei from many different lines we see that there is in fact a very clear standardisation of timing in the majority of them.

It is also worth remembering that the aesthetic aspect of JMA is a big factor. Formal postures and movement patterns became more and more important as Bujutsu became Budo. In this regard it is not good for the practitioners to alter their tempo, speed and timing in their patterns or forms. This transition from truly martial methods to martial 'ways' should not be underestimated when we look at some of the traditional japanese arts. For some, their focus deeply changed away from function towards something more akin to the tea ceremony. This is most prevalent in Iaido IMO with few true IaiJutsu arts remaining where they do a lot of test cutting and functional training.

That said i think JMA still has some good methods for dealing with real tempo, rythm and speed changes. Much of the IP work stemming from Daito Ryu will help you nullify the effects of these things or even stop them being able to occur, very little of that carried through to Aikido though unfortunately. You also see some teachers like Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei who have taken timing, tempo change and lightning reflex actions to a very high level.

thanks
Chris.

[Itten]

Hello Chris,
The next time I'm in your neck of the woods I will look you up. Unlike many of the posters here at least you have some background in aiki arts. Whilst it is true that Kuroda brought some of his boxing skills into aikido I don't think that grafting striking techniques onto aikido from other arts is particularly useful if someone is trying to master the IP aspects buried within the forms. I have practiced aikido for going on 24 years and have seen and trained with many of the top teachers around the world. Some of them, like my late teacher, Hroshi Kato, definitely used split rhythms and broken timing to dis balance an opponent, physically and mentally. He also applied atemi with any part of his body, including hands, feet, elbows ,knees, back, in the manner of a gentle or explosive force. He also made some use of both spiral and wave force. Unfortunately my Japanese was too poor to ever discuss these matters without an interpreter, so I have to build upon my own practice. Since I have trained in several arts over the years ,and had limited practical experience ( not like yours respectfully) on the streets and in full contact competitions I can see the strengths and weaknesses of aikido fairly clearly.
I cannot see the point in commenting too seriously on this video, but then I don't really see the point of posting it except to diss aikido, and I would think that is pointless for most of the highly experienced people here.
Ba men's comments are very close to my experience of using aikido techniques and when I have worked with bouncers and taught this stuff they make it work fine. To be honest though I don't think that applied aikido is aikido anymore. If successful it more closely resembles a blend of aikido, ba gua, panatukan, and judo. In other words it simply becomes a taijutsu.

Then again show me any art that still looks like its forms and demonstrations when applied.

respect to all, Alec

[WVMark]

I too would be interested in seeing ANY aikido that is "99 percent atemi:" Even if Uyeshiba said it, he did not demonstrate it, and apparently did not teach as, as AFAIK, none of his students seem to have this technique prioritization - if anything, it is the other way round (99 percent vast circular movements, wrist locks, flips, falls - and one percent judo chop).

I wonder if this oft-quoted quote was really just a "one-hand-clapping" kind of Zen riddle that the little old man came up with to confuse the various oafs and oiks who infest the martial arts...?

In the book, Aikido Shugyo, Shioda states that Ueshiba told him that in a fight, aikido is 70% atemi. I forget the actual percentage, it could have been 75. But, the main point was that Ueshiba wasn't talking about all the dancing around that Modern Aikido does. Ueshiba was talking about fights. To illustrate this, check out the Manchurian demonstration that Ueshiba did with Ohba as his uke. Ohba decided, on his own, to really go at Ueshiba with everything he had. This was NOT what Ueshiba wanted to demonstrate. Ueshiba handled him easily, but was furious at him for changing things. To go even further, look up Kuroiwa Yoshio, a very good fighter/boxer.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17729

Morihei Ueshiba attracted all kinds of students from top ranking kenjutsu/kendo people, to top ranking sumo, top ranking boxers, top ranking karate, etc. They all wanted to learn from him because Ueshiba handled their challenges in such a manner that they didn't know what he did or how he did it.

As for teaching atemi? It only takes a few vids of Morihei Ueshiba, even in his 80s to see him apply atemi in his techniques. No, he doesn't actually hit uke, but he does show the strike. Teach it? Yeah, he did. Where did it go? Kisshomaru Ueshiba changed things.

Ueshiba handed over the Tokyo dojo to his son to run. His son, Kisshomaru, change a lot. Gone were weapons practice. Gone were solo training practices. Gone were atemi. He codified techniques into a syllabus, which his father never did, and added rankings to it. He took out all the spiritual mumbo jumbo because no one understood it, which was a shame because that mumbo jumbo had a lot of meaning, filled with Internal Chinese theories on how to build an IP/aiki body.

So, all those aikido dojos around the world are actually NOT training Morihei Ueshiba's aikido, but rather Kisshomaru Ueshiba's aikido. Definitely not the same. And pretty much, most of this can be applied to the lineages of Shioda, Tomiki, Mochizuki, etc along with a lot of Daito ryu schools. The secret, aiki, was almost lost. A few rare people here and there got bits and pieces of it, but so far have failed to pass much of it on. Thankfully, the aiki of Morihei Ueshiba that was taught to him by his teacher, Sokaku Takeda, has survived in a more complete package (Note that more complete doesn't mean everything. Takeda is long gone so we aren't sure of everything that he knew). That aiki is being learned, trained, and taught by quite a few people out there now. Their aikido has become quite a bit better in just a few short years. Howard Popkin and Bill Gleason come to mind. Look them up if you're curious.

Most of Modern Aikido isn't martially valid, IMO. That doesn't mean it's value-less. There is a lot of value in Modern Aikido. Unfortunately, people tend to equate it with martially sound and derived from Morihei Ueshiba. There are a few aikido schools out there that are martially sound, but they're very very good jujutsu rather than the aiki of Ueshiba. If you're chasing Ueshiba's power and skills, they are out there ... just not in many places. Not to mention that IP/aiki still doesn't equate to fighting skills. If you want to fight, you have to learn how.

[hodmeist]

The Aikido 4th Dan offers himself on a plate like a sacrificial lamb.

[neijia_boxer]

the wrestler didnt even look like he currently trains...like he did wrestling 15 years ago and walked into a dojo to see if a Aikido master could take on a old school wrestler.