Some great taiji stuff.

[LaoDan]

Chen Yanlin (陳炎林) writes some about the lingkong jin (凌空勁) ability in his 1943 book 太極拳刀劍桿散手合編 TAIJI COMPILED: THE BOXING, SABER, SWORD, POLE, AND SPARRING.

He seems to indicate that while this skill is real and appears miraculous, “it is not something you ardently need to strive for, for it is really just a parlor trick,” (according to Brennan’s translation).

此勁異常奧妙。近於神祕。而非目覩者所能信。實乃一種精神上之作用而已。藝高者發此勁時。僅須口中一哈。對方卽雙足離地而後退。蓋因被發者。精神已為發者所吸引。無可抵抗。然被發者必須先明沾黏等勁。故一哈之後。卽由感覺而後退。否則發者仍無效。此勁雖奧妙莫測。但學者可不必深求。僅作遊戲觀可耳。相傳昔時楊健侯少侯父子。能吸引燭火近尺。一手隔之。火光遂熄。卽凌空勁中之一法。惟此功夫今已 失傳云。

[XiaoXiong]

Yeah I've definetly felt that thing like I dont want to apply force cause my wrist will be hurt or something. It's weird how the intent works that way, because I am sensitive to it, and can use it, but not at that level. The other thing is the Fa Jing is so different in taiji than xingyi and bagua that I've seen. The way it comes through the arms as the point of contact and hits the center is something else. There are a couple things that seem to really help me with training better ima and ESP taiji right now.
Getting the intent in the hands and feet. I've done enough training to get this pretty well. Makes the quality of the training higher. Really gets the chi development going.
The orbits of single whip.
The idea of only worrying about what comes to your center, and only worrying about getting theirs.
I am used to doing a lot of tactical stuff to hide my center, attack the joints and affect the center yes, but this kind of focus on the center is more profound. Next I hope to make better use of stillness. I'm going to push at Paul Ramos' place tonight. Stillness is my goal.
Jess

[windwalker]

Chen Yanlin (陳炎林) writes some about the lingkong jin (凌空勁) ability in his 1943 book 太極拳刀劍桿散手合編 TAIJI COMPILED: THE BOXING, SABER, SWORD, POLE, AND SPARRING.

He seems to indicate that while this skill is real and appears miraculous, “it is not something you ardently need to strive for, for it is really just a parlor trick,” (according to Brennan’s translation).

此勁異常奧妙。近於神祕。而非目覩者所能信。實乃一種精神上之作用而已。藝高者發此勁時。僅須口中一哈。對方卽雙足離地而後退。蓋因被發者。精神已為發者所吸引。無可抵抗。然被發者必須先明沾黏等勁。故一哈之後。卽由感覺而後退。否則發者仍無效。此勁雖奧妙莫測。但學者可不必深求。僅作遊戲觀可耳。相傳昔時楊健侯少侯父子。能吸引燭火近尺。一手隔之。火光遂熄。卽凌空勁中之一法。惟此功夫今已 失傳云。

ZMQ, also said much the same thing from one of the books I've read.

my point would be that much of their skill stems from the basic principles and ideas from which "LKJ" arrives from.
its not something "one strives for" but arrives to, naturally with a deepening understanding of the real skill being developed.

I have always said that touched or not the principle is the same. Why any teacher would then say "it is really just a parlor trick" would seem to indicate they never met with any high level exponent of it, and more to the point that they dont seem to really understand the basis of their own art.

Yang replied that there were only three kinds of people he could not defeat: men of brass, men of iron and men of wood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch'an

iron, wood and brass have no mind

[I-mon]

the craziest part was that I literally could not feel him doing anything at all. No sensation of being pushed or pulled or manipulated in any way, just moving in a different direction and losing my balance. Very cool stuff.

Now I train wrestling and BJJ, and continually train my central axis sensitivity and meditation on my own. Working both ends of the spectrum, if you like.

good you experienced something that you could not explain.
but now feel that your present training would tend to prevent it?
seems like the better way would be to train in it, until some type of understanding or ability was reached,
then build the training around this.

Nah I don't think so. That teacher (Cai Songfang) taught and practiced something really simple: Wuji gong, standing meditation. He's the guy Jan Diepersloot wrote a lot about in Warriors of Stillness pt 1.

So I still practice wujigong, and in fact incorporate it into everything I do. And it helps a LOT in wrestling and BJJ, and I've got the rest of my life to get better. In the meantime, grappling is really, really fun, and it makes my xingyi/bagua/taiji/capoeira/muaythai/boxing background about a million times more effective.

I've been working a fair bit on "structure testing" or "rooting" or "posting" stuff over the years, and a lot more recently. Being able to absorb force on any part of the body in any direction, while maintaining the "heaven-earth" axis through the centerline with relaxed breathing. The other side of this is that of the "pusher" or person applying force, where I've been working on something like what someone described above: being able to apply force on another person's center, in different directions, without changing the point of contact or visibly externally moving one's own body, while maintaining the same heaven-earth axis and breathing. So for example I might put my left hand on my partner's right elbow, and my right hand on his left shoulder, and I'll practice finding his center and applying a force to the left, to the front, uprooting from underneath, etc, without moving my own body (externally).

Again, it's classic Taiji stuff, but massively applicable in grappling/sparring, and it's hardcore as fuck muscular training - for all the internal muscles.

[Andy_S]

And now for something completely different...

This is Chen Ziqiang demonstrating what I suspect many here would consider "low level" Taijiquan: Competitive style PH.

What I like about Ziqiang's approach is that this is not a "demonstration" with a student nor a set of "applications" this is him actually asking the student to do their damndest to throw him in a sparring format. The students, who are all bigger than him and all outweigh him, get nowhere. (I have yet to see anyone throw him, though it certainly has happened.) While this kind of training is not the totality of combat, its application to self-defense or combat is obvious - especially when you look at his finishing positions. The same cannot be said for many of the skillsets posted previously - and indeed, we have seen/discussed on a previous thread how some of the more "out there" skills that have dramatic effects on conditioned students, simply do not "work" on non-cooperative persons.

I am sure that if you ask ZIqiang, he would not say that he has reached the highest level of Taiji. Fortunately, he is only in his (I think) late 30s, so he has another 30 years + to work on this "higher level" skills.

I suspect that even the greatest grandmasters, the ones who obtained "high-level" skills, went through this stage: As I-mon alludes to, some kind of grappling-based sparring teaches you a huge amount about sensitivity, about change, about flow, about leverage, about balance, about yielding, about leading into emptiness, etc, etc. I don't think you can bypass this level.

And I'll lay my cards on the table. Personally, I think this is excellent applied Taiji.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KjiqF3 ... ubkHt3l5ng

[Patrick]

I do not understand this "tai chi grappling", it looks more strength based than judo, wrestling, bjj, sambo etc.

[Andy_S]

Patrick:

Well, Ziqiang is a lot smaller (therefore, probably less strong) than everyone he throws hither and yon, so the logical inference must be that....looks are deceiving, no?

For me: I see relaxation; yielding; leading; following; and technique by the bucket-load. His favorite move, "flash the back" is based on redirection and a turn/spin around the vertical axis.

[Patrick]

Maybe you are right, but I see mostly someone exploding with his weight into his opponent, and that he seems to do good. It is not really what I like about grappling.

[Andy_S]

I'd say he is very good defensively at using his spine as an axis (spin throws) and very good offensively at using his shoulder as a battering ram (projections). I have been on the receiving end of both and I did not hop, hoppity hop away - my arse bounced off the deck in both cases.

What I would like to see him doing more of is putting together the full gamut of skills - ie a compound of striking, throwing and locking. But that would not be PH.

And as noted earlier: I don't see other Taiji masters taking on their students in scenarios where the students really are going all-out (within the confines of the exercise) to dump the maestro, full force. Ziqiang does this all the time.

[MaartenSFS]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry that I can't watch all the videos in this thread for now (pain in the arse in China). I'm glad that my thread initiated some discussion. Windwalker is right in saying that I have my limits in what I'll believe. But if I ever meet someone that can take me out without touching I'll be the first to re-recant here, no matter if anyone else believes what I say or not, as I am a man of principle - one with a healthy sense of skepticism. Today I was knocked back several metres into a tree by my teacher. It was nothing but physics that did it, nothing mystical at all. God I love the training. I am going to be such a badarse in three years!

[XiaoXiong]

Chen Ziqiang looks pretty good as a wrestler. He uses a ton of power to make his throws work and they do. Is this high level, no. Its good stuff though. I'm a fan In a way. It just doesn't seem like he uses the taiji principals at all. It's not the same. Not bad, but not the same.
Jess

[windwalker]

agreed, the teacher has good skill, not really interested in this type of skill.

And as noted earlier: I don't see other Taiji masters taking on their students in scenarios where the students really are going all-out (within the confines of the exercise) to dump the maestro, full force. Ziqiang does this all the time.

that are filmed and put up on utube. what most do see are teachers teaching or demos, trying to either explain or showcase a skill set or occasional others that fail like in all other arts, some times things just dont work out.

as was noted earlier, most of the teachers doing what the OP has posted like the students to use as much power and intent as possible. But most students or anyone encountering one with such skills wont as its immediately, intuitively understood doing so would cause injury.

like pushing on a door that suddenly moves, why would one use all their force.

Force can only be applied against force.
hence the idea and concept of emptiness as a method.

as "bodywork" mentioned there is the part of getting the skill, and then being able to apply it.
it takes awhile to do both. Just getting it, can be a huge undertaking the skill sets are so counter intuitive
the tend to be disbelieved until felt.


as was mentioned in this thread "Where did the thread about Ming Jin go?"
many of the higher methods dont get trained or the practitioners see no need to feeling that they have some
skill that works for them. these are skill sets that most see, and feel in use.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21362

There's a lot of Xingyiquan people in China who are perfectly happy just fighting with the 'Ming Jin' stage of skills and strategy and don't want to change-up their personal practice in order to learn the 2nd stage, so the 2nd and 3rd stage of practices are on the verge of being lost, but the stages of refinement for the body movements can occur no matter as they're more based upon doing something correctly for X amount of years will bring about a certain level of refinement. But while these stages require, and depend on that refinement of the body skills, they're not defined or limited to just that, as they have their own tactics and new things to be learned in regards to stepping, hand techniques, etc. that can make better use of those refinements.

many having been through the process in other arts as the OP have come to understand that there is something more and very different. weather its useful or not depends on skill and degree of practice

[windwalker]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry that I can't watch all the videos in this thread for now (pain in the arse in China). I'm glad that my thread initiated some discussion. Windwalker is right in saying that I have my limits in what I'll believe. But if I ever meet someone that can take me out without touching I'll be the first to re-recant here, no matter if anyone else believes what I say or not, as I am a man of principle - one with a healthy sense of skepticism. Today I was knocked back several metres into a tree by my teacher. It was nothing but physics that did it, nothing mystical at all. God I love the training. I am going to be such a badarse in three years!

its not a matter of belief or not, it exist outside of ones self.
it is a matter or weather one is open to the possibility or not.

touching or not the process is the same.

nothing mystical at all.

all things shown in the video clips can be explained using physics, the level of peoples understanding of "physics" is pretty basic, some teachers have tried translating their approach into what some might consider more acceptable western terms using physics.

IMO kind of waste of time, considering that most dont understand really understand physics

The main stumbling block for most is the idea of not using force, such a basic instinctive reaction really its quite hard to
de train the mind/body to accept and use another method.

[XiaoXiong]

I'm glad someone posted Chen Zi Qiang. Do you guys see the difference in intent? Is he doing much of anything with it? I don't think so. Bu Shi Taiji! It's just like sc. John Wang probably would have a field day and love to see a purported taiji exponent training like that. So for me Chen Zi Qiang is good at Shuai Jiao in the guise of taiji. Even Chen Yu who I think is much better, is limited. I really don't see Chen style generally as representing the ideals of Taijiquan. Some Zhaobao looks good. But really it seems the Yang and Wu style folks have the most internal skill that I've seen. I'd like to see if Dan Harden has any good examples of IP on video as well.
Jess

[LaoDan]

my point would be that much of their skill stems from the basic principles and ideas from which "LKJ" arrives from.
its not something "one strives for" but arrives to, naturally with a deepening understanding of the real skill being developed.

I have always said that touched or not the principle is the same. Why any teacher would then say "it is really just a parlor trick" would seem to indicate they never met with any high level exponent of it, and more to the point that they dont seem to really understand the basis of their own art.

Here is perhaps a better translation for this section than Brennan’s. It comes from Jeff (Gu Rouchen):

"This type of energy is extraordinarily profound, bordering on the mysterious. People who witness this don't believe it. In actuality though, it is just a kind of effect upon the consciousness. When high level masters use this energy, all they have to do is shout "ha" and the opponent's two feet will leave the ground and they will jump back. This is because the consciousness of the person being bounced has already been enticed by the master and they cannot resist. This being the case, the person being affected such, must first understand the energies of adhering and sticking. He moves back from (his own) feeling (of these energy changes in the master). Without his first having a familiarity with these energies it will be ineffective."

I think that Chen Yanlin is dismissive because of the statement “Without his [the receiver of the energy] first having a familiarity with these energies [adhering and sticking] it [LKJ] will be ineffective." This seems to reflect the criticisms expressed on RSF, and this seems to be born out in the various clips that have been posted; the receiver of the energy being a trained student of the master. The LKJ skill does not seem to be effective against bystanders (even those standing close by) witnessing the demonstrations or other uncooperative (and untrained) subjects.

At least you seem to acknowledge that LKJ works on the receiver’s mind (intent) rather than trying to explain it as something like ‘bioelectricity’ or ‘magnetism’ (although many who feel LKJ seem to equate the sensation to something like magnetic force). Even though I am just a hobbyist and no where near to being a master, I actually have some experience affecting people’s movements, to some degree, without their knowledge. Walking up behind people on a sidewalk, I can sometimes get them to move over to one side or the other using only my thoughts (intent), but this is when they are unaware of me (they are neither compliant nor resistant and are sometimes startled when I pass by them). So I feel that this may be trained, but I am not leaving what I feel is practical in order to go after something that may be extraordinary.

I would prefer personally to train the basic principles of the art and if that eventually leads to being able to more significantly control someone who is noncompliant and/or resisting, then I’ll welcome it when it comes. For now I would rather use my intention to potentially add to how I affect an opponent physically (e.g. thinking and pointing in the direction that I want someone to fall when off-balancing them may add to the degree of my success in moving them), but I do not train LKJ separately, although it is perhaps a part of the “basic principles” that I practice. If the mental adds to the physical, and eventually becomes more and more of the total effect, then fine.