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Wu Baji Dispute
25 posts • Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by Baji Rao on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:35 pm
Interesting stuff. Politics or not, what they say on this vid is useful for someone who want to understand something more on this delicate issue.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by wuwei on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:52 pm
Very interesting documentary. For those who don't understand Chinese, it's about the disputing claim of the birth place of Wu Zhong, the founder of Baji Quan. On one side is Shangdong Qingyun which has its local genealogy manual as supporting document. On the other side is the Wu Lianzhi's claim of Hebei Meng village as the birthplace of Baji and himself as a direct descendant.
The documentary people looked up the local genealogy manual in Meng village and many Baji quanpu written during the Republic era including those written by Wu's grandfather Wu Huiqing. Their shocking discoveries are that not only Wu Zhong was not a native of Meng village, Wu Huiqing substituted his own father as a direct disciple of Wu Zhong over another person, hence fabricated his claim as a direct descendant. Wu Huiqing and Wu Lianzhi over the years had also in several occasions willfully rearranged the lineage chart so that they appeared higher.
From a tradition CMA society viewpoint, these are some really serious accusations (欺師滅祖). But then from a modern viewpoint, this is just another case of traditional political nonsense.
The documentary people looked up the local genealogy manual in Meng village and many Baji quanpu written during the Republic era including those written by Wu's grandfather Wu Huiqing. Their shocking discoveries are that not only Wu Zhong was not a native of Meng village, Wu Huiqing substituted his own father as a direct disciple of Wu Zhong over another person, hence fabricated his claim as a direct descendant. Wu Huiqing and Wu Lianzhi over the years had also in several occasions willfully rearranged the lineage chart so that they appeared higher.
From a tradition CMA society viewpoint, these are some really serious accusations (欺師滅祖). But then from a modern viewpoint, this is just another case of traditional political nonsense.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by oskar on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:36 am
Wuwei, thanks for explaining the content of the video, was just going to ask about it, as my chinese is not that good. 
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by Baji Rao on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:27 am
wuwei wrote:Very interesting documentary. For those who don't understand Chinese, it's about the disputing claim of the birth place of Wu Zhong, the founder of Baji Quan. On one side is Shangdong Qingyun which has its local genealogy manual as supporting document. On the other side is the Wu Lianzhi's claim of Hebei Meng village as the birthplace of Baji and himself as a direct descendant.
The documentary people looked up the local genealogy manual in Meng village and many Baji quanpu written during the Republic era including those written by Wu's grandfather Wu Huiqing. Their shocking discoveries are that not only Wu Zhong was not a native of Meng village, Wu Huiqing substituted his own father as a direct disciple of Wu Zhong over another person, hence fabricated his claim as a direct descendant. Wu Huiqing and Wu Lianzhi over the years had also in several occasions willfully rearranged the lineage chart so that they appeared higher.
From a tradition CMA society viewpoint, these are some really serious accusations (欺師滅祖). But then from a modern viewpoint, this is just another case of traditional political nonsense.
Maybe this is just another case of traditional political nonsense, like you said. But I think all the propaganda Wu Lianzhi did on tv and magazine about his claims during these years didn't help the situation, on the contrary only made bajiquan community pissed off.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by C.J.W. on Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:52 am
wuwei wrote:From a tradition CMA society viewpoint, these are some really serious accusations (欺師滅祖). But then from a modern viewpoint, this is just another case of traditional political nonsense.
Or one could also regard Wu Lianzhi as a shrewd and witty hero/businessman skilled in PR and Marketing; perhaps those who are infuriated by his actions could look on the bright side and think about how much he's done to launch Baji, a once obscure and relatively unknown system outside of northern China, into stardom by making the groundbreaking decision to model for Sega's best-selling Virtual Fighter software series in the 90s, consequently spreading the art to Japan and, from there on, all over the world.
I guess some would even argue that, in terms of promoting Baji, he's done more in 20 years than what a village full of farmers in Shandong could achieve altogether in a lifetime.
P.S. Not saying that I agree with how he's been altering the art's history in his favor -- just playing the devil's advocate and trying to approach the issue from another perspective.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by BajiFreak on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:50 pm
I was asking myself when this stuff would come out here … I will not comment too much on this, since I think this story will likely end up in a lawsuit. But since I am a disciple of the MengCun Wu family, I think everybody is waiting for me to say something 
…
So I will stay as factual as possible ….
About HouZhuangKe people and their family record : the Wu from HouZhuangKe don’t have any authority to speak about Wu Zhong’s genealogy and their record is not the original document in which Wu Zhong was recorded. The HZK Wu family is a sub-branch of the MengCun/HeLüDian family. At the time of Wu Zhong, the Wu had just started do dwell in HZK and thus, their genealogy was recorded in MengCun and not in HZK. The record shown in the vid was initiated about 100 years after Wu Zhong’s death, and is an incomplete copy of the MengCun original record. This resulted in the good people on the vid producing some nice documents and a tombstone for Wu Zhong containing some infos that they made up by themselves. This just shows how reliable their so called historical researches are … The original JiaPu is held by one of WLZ’s remote cousin, it should be brought to the public before the end of this year.
About Wu Yong (吴永) being replaced by Wu Ying (吴溁) : Wu Yong and Wu Ying are the same person. The 1828 MengCun Wu family record clearly shows that Wu Ying (WLZ’s ancestor) was in fact initially called Wu Rong (吴荣), i.e. he had exactly the same name as Wu Zhong’s daughter. He changed is first name to Ying in order to avoid confusion. However, the 溁 character is a very rare character that most people pronounce incorrectly Yong, whereas the few dictionaries that mention it, say it should be Ying. Hence, Wu Ying was nicknamed “Yong second father” in MengCun. Unlike Wu Ying, Wu HuiQing had no literary instruction, so he miswrote WuYing’s name in his first draft manuals, before correcting it in the official 1936 printed version. The people who made the vid claim to have the full MengCun genealogy manual, and that Yong and Ying are 2 different persons, so they should easily answer this question that has already been asked many times : who is Wu Yong, from which sub branch of MengCun is he and who were is ancestors and descendents ? I let you guess why they never answered : there is nobody called Wu Yong (吴永) in the MengCun Wu family JiaPu (from which I also have a copy). Apart from Wu Ying, there was nobody called Wu Yong in Mengcun at that time… So ?
About the Baji QuanPu presented by Mr Li ShiMing : this manual was supposedly written in 1920 by Zhang QingHeng who was only about 18 at that time. This manual says Ding XiaoWu was a direct disciple of Wu Zhong, whereas some high ranking Ding family members have already confirmed that Ding XiaoWu was only 2 years old when Wu Zhong died. More funny is that the manual gives an incorrect spelling, among others, for Wu Zhong’s name, and proudly presents itself as a record of “把计拳” (BajiQuan = grasping & counting fist ?) instead of “八极拳” (eight extreme boxing). So, the MengCun baji manual is a fake one because one character was miswritten, but everybody should take as a reference a manual written by a 18 year old guy who knew better about what happened in MengCun during the first generations, but was unable to write correctly the name of his martial style…
About some father and son being on the same level in the MengCun baji manual. The reason for this is very simple : smallpox … The disease was plaguing the CangZhou area in the 18 and 19th century. For instance, Wu Ying’s only had one son called Wu TongYun who contracted the disease, gave birth to a son called Wu Kun and died 3-4 years after. So Wu Ying had to raise and teach his grandson himself. Why should Wu Kun be recorded as a disciple of his own father, whereas he barely never saw him ?
About the MengCun Wu being or not being Wu Zhong’s descendent. The Wu family record show that Wu Zhong only had one daughter called Wu Rong who got married with a ChangQuan expert called Dai YueYi. Dai was initially recruited to give a descendent to Wu Zhong, but since the Dai family had no other descendent, it was finally agreed that Wu Rong and her children would re-integrate the Dai family after Dai YueYi’s death. As a consequence, the Wu family record traces about Wu Rong’s only grandson that he left the Wu family and that his descendents were lost. In order to avoid to see Wu Zhong’s belonging go into the Dai family, the elders from MengCun Wu family asked Wu Zhong to acknowledge one legit descendent among them, using the specific GuoJi (过继) tradition, which was an adoption process frequently used among the Hui minority. Hence Wu Ying was acknowledged by Wu Zhong as his legit descendent and Wu LianZhi is one of the direct descendent of Wu Ying.
The muslim Hui tradition requires that after their death, Hui male people should be buried after ceremonial washing and wrapping in white clothes, next to their fathers, according to their birth order. The video claims that Wu Ying was not adopted by Wu Zhong and that the real Wu Zhong descendents are his daughter Wu Rong and her sons. So one simple question : Where are they buried ? If Wu Rong and her sons did not leave the Wu family, why are they not buried in MengCun or in HZK next to Wu Zhong, as the tradition requires it ? Why are their decendents recorded as lost is somebody was specially recruited for maintaining the line ?
Moreover, since Wu Ying was an adoptive son, he asked not to be buried next to his natural father and brother. Hence, he was he buried alone with his descendents in a mall yard located in the north of MengCun, whereas his father, mother and brother are buried with the rest of the MengCun Wu family in the west of MengCun. This can easily be verified when going to MengCun. Otherwise, how could the MengCun people have inherited from Wu Zhong’s belongings ?
About HouZhuangKe being the birthplace of BajiQuan: how could it be so, since there has never been anybody doing baji in HZK ? There is nobody who can trace back any Baji practitioner in HZK or one of its surrounding village, whereas MengCun and its vincinity have produced hundreds of famous and documented baji players. And yes, Wu Zhong was born in HZK, but he left the place when he was a child. The HZK Wu family has already acknowledged on many occasions that when Wu Zhong died, he was living in MengCun, and that his body was brought back by the MengCun people. A simple look at a map shows that Wu Zhong could never live in HZK and teach people on a regular basis at the same time due to the distance. Saying that HZK is the birthplace of baji is just like saying that The Clash’s punk rock is originating from Ankara, Turkey, because Joe Strummer was born there … Also, should Elvis be remembered as a Memphis Tennessee guy of as a Tupelo Mississippi guy ?
So in the end, just a bunch of rednecks from Shandong who until 10 years ago never knew anything about baji, but recently were told that since they had the tomb of one famous Baji player, they should get their piece from the pie. Nice example of how using inaccurate documents and biased reasoning you can end up in claiming to have the real, stuff. After Shaolin Henan, Yueshan temple, $$$HouZhuangKe$$$ has the origin of baji …
…So I will stay as factual as possible ….
About HouZhuangKe people and their family record : the Wu from HouZhuangKe don’t have any authority to speak about Wu Zhong’s genealogy and their record is not the original document in which Wu Zhong was recorded. The HZK Wu family is a sub-branch of the MengCun/HeLüDian family. At the time of Wu Zhong, the Wu had just started do dwell in HZK and thus, their genealogy was recorded in MengCun and not in HZK. The record shown in the vid was initiated about 100 years after Wu Zhong’s death, and is an incomplete copy of the MengCun original record. This resulted in the good people on the vid producing some nice documents and a tombstone for Wu Zhong containing some infos that they made up by themselves. This just shows how reliable their so called historical researches are … The original JiaPu is held by one of WLZ’s remote cousin, it should be brought to the public before the end of this year.
About Wu Yong (吴永) being replaced by Wu Ying (吴溁) : Wu Yong and Wu Ying are the same person. The 1828 MengCun Wu family record clearly shows that Wu Ying (WLZ’s ancestor) was in fact initially called Wu Rong (吴荣), i.e. he had exactly the same name as Wu Zhong’s daughter. He changed is first name to Ying in order to avoid confusion. However, the 溁 character is a very rare character that most people pronounce incorrectly Yong, whereas the few dictionaries that mention it, say it should be Ying. Hence, Wu Ying was nicknamed “Yong second father” in MengCun. Unlike Wu Ying, Wu HuiQing had no literary instruction, so he miswrote WuYing’s name in his first draft manuals, before correcting it in the official 1936 printed version. The people who made the vid claim to have the full MengCun genealogy manual, and that Yong and Ying are 2 different persons, so they should easily answer this question that has already been asked many times : who is Wu Yong, from which sub branch of MengCun is he and who were is ancestors and descendents ? I let you guess why they never answered : there is nobody called Wu Yong (吴永) in the MengCun Wu family JiaPu (from which I also have a copy). Apart from Wu Ying, there was nobody called Wu Yong in Mengcun at that time… So ?
About the Baji QuanPu presented by Mr Li ShiMing : this manual was supposedly written in 1920 by Zhang QingHeng who was only about 18 at that time. This manual says Ding XiaoWu was a direct disciple of Wu Zhong, whereas some high ranking Ding family members have already confirmed that Ding XiaoWu was only 2 years old when Wu Zhong died. More funny is that the manual gives an incorrect spelling, among others, for Wu Zhong’s name, and proudly presents itself as a record of “把计拳” (BajiQuan = grasping & counting fist ?) instead of “八极拳” (eight extreme boxing). So, the MengCun baji manual is a fake one because one character was miswritten, but everybody should take as a reference a manual written by a 18 year old guy who knew better about what happened in MengCun during the first generations, but was unable to write correctly the name of his martial style…
About some father and son being on the same level in the MengCun baji manual. The reason for this is very simple : smallpox … The disease was plaguing the CangZhou area in the 18 and 19th century. For instance, Wu Ying’s only had one son called Wu TongYun who contracted the disease, gave birth to a son called Wu Kun and died 3-4 years after. So Wu Ying had to raise and teach his grandson himself. Why should Wu Kun be recorded as a disciple of his own father, whereas he barely never saw him ?
About the MengCun Wu being or not being Wu Zhong’s descendent. The Wu family record show that Wu Zhong only had one daughter called Wu Rong who got married with a ChangQuan expert called Dai YueYi. Dai was initially recruited to give a descendent to Wu Zhong, but since the Dai family had no other descendent, it was finally agreed that Wu Rong and her children would re-integrate the Dai family after Dai YueYi’s death. As a consequence, the Wu family record traces about Wu Rong’s only grandson that he left the Wu family and that his descendents were lost. In order to avoid to see Wu Zhong’s belonging go into the Dai family, the elders from MengCun Wu family asked Wu Zhong to acknowledge one legit descendent among them, using the specific GuoJi (过继) tradition, which was an adoption process frequently used among the Hui minority. Hence Wu Ying was acknowledged by Wu Zhong as his legit descendent and Wu LianZhi is one of the direct descendent of Wu Ying.
The muslim Hui tradition requires that after their death, Hui male people should be buried after ceremonial washing and wrapping in white clothes, next to their fathers, according to their birth order. The video claims that Wu Ying was not adopted by Wu Zhong and that the real Wu Zhong descendents are his daughter Wu Rong and her sons. So one simple question : Where are they buried ? If Wu Rong and her sons did not leave the Wu family, why are they not buried in MengCun or in HZK next to Wu Zhong, as the tradition requires it ? Why are their decendents recorded as lost is somebody was specially recruited for maintaining the line ?
Moreover, since Wu Ying was an adoptive son, he asked not to be buried next to his natural father and brother. Hence, he was he buried alone with his descendents in a mall yard located in the north of MengCun, whereas his father, mother and brother are buried with the rest of the MengCun Wu family in the west of MengCun. This can easily be verified when going to MengCun. Otherwise, how could the MengCun people have inherited from Wu Zhong’s belongings ?
About HouZhuangKe being the birthplace of BajiQuan: how could it be so, since there has never been anybody doing baji in HZK ?
There is nobody who can trace back any Baji practitioner in HZK or one of its surrounding village, whereas MengCun and its vincinity have produced hundreds of famous and documented baji players. And yes, Wu Zhong was born in HZK, but he left the place when he was a child. The HZK Wu family has already acknowledged on many occasions that when Wu Zhong died, he was living in MengCun, and that his body was brought back by the MengCun people. A simple look at a map shows that Wu Zhong could never live in HZK and teach people on a regular basis at the same time due to the distance. Saying that HZK is the birthplace of baji is just like saying that The Clash’s punk rock is originating from Ankara, Turkey, because Joe Strummer was born there … Also, should Elvis be remembered as a Memphis Tennessee guy of as a Tupelo Mississippi guy ?So in the end, just a bunch of rednecks from Shandong who until 10 years ago never knew anything about baji, but recently were told that since they had the tomb of one famous Baji player, they should get their piece from the pie. Nice example of how using inaccurate documents and biased reasoning you can end up in claiming to have the real, stuff. After Shaolin Henan, Yueshan temple, $$$HouZhuangKe$$$ has the origin of baji …
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by Overlord on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:07 am
Thanks for sharing Bajifreak.
This does clarify a lot confusion,
given mounting accusation from the other side.
Over
This does clarify a lot confusion,
given mounting accusation from the other side.
Over
- Overlord
Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by Coiled_Spring on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:02 am
Baji Quan was created by Taoists Lai and Pi and I am sure Wu Zhong wasn't the only one who was passed this art.
The whole politics of lineage, birth and genealogy cannot solve the debate of real origins of Baji quan. But the theories behind the art can. My 2 cents being a non-practitioner of the art.
The whole politics of lineage, birth and genealogy cannot solve the debate of real origins of Baji quan. But the theories behind the art can. My 2 cents being a non-practitioner of the art.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by BajiNooby on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:00 pm
Ooh this stuff is just getting dirtyer all the time. Personaly i just try my best to stay away from it and keep a safe distance. Even i am from the Luotan side of it all.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by BajiFreak on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:20 am
Coiled_Spring wrote:Baji Quan was created by Taoists Lai and Pi and I am sure Wu Zhong wasn't the only one who was passed this art.
The whole politics of lineage, birth and genealogy cannot solve the debate of real origins of Baji quan. But the theories behind the art can. My 2 cents being a non-practitioner of the art.
I have had endless discussion with Wu LianZhi about the origin of Baji, and who taught Wu Zhong. I tried ton get him drunk or lock him in my house to have him talk, but he always had the same answer "I don't know, only Wu Zhong knows. I don't think Lai and Pi really exist, it's just that Wu Zhong was unwilling or unable to give a distinct name for his teacher. I think he built the style from his own experience, picking up stuff from here and there...". All the early writings about baji agree on one thing : Wu Zhong roamed a lot, and he was already old when he came back to Mengcun area to teach what became Baji ...
I guess the answer is the same as for the following question "Who taught guitar to Jimi Hendrix ?" : he roamed a lot, amazed some people and certainly got humbled by others, and since he was pretty gifted, after some time he came out with disitinct licks of his own that nobody had seen before ...
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by Baji Rao on Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:45 pm
Who is lying is still too early to say...is the taekwondo champion's slayer Wu Lianzhi, or the vast majority of envious masters of the baji universe? We'll see!
Bajifreak, that fight with the taekwondo champion was a fake, right? This counts as a lie. LOL
Bajifreak, that fight with the taekwondo champion was a fake, right? This counts as a lie. LOL
Last edited by Baji Rao on Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by BajiFreak on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:16 am
Baji Rao wrote:Who is lying is still too early to say...is the taekwondo champion's slayer Wu Lianzhi, or the vast majority of envious masters of the baji universe? We'll see!
Yes, we'll see. I got confirmation from the Wu that a lawsuit is on its way. Great fun ahead
...Baji Rao wrote:Bajifreak, that fight with the taekwondo champion was a fake, right? This counts as a lie. LOL
Come on, you and me already discussed about this stuff 4 years ago
... I already told you what I (and WLZ) think about it...- BajiFreak
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Re: Wu Baji Dispute
by bailewen on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:38 am
Are you guys talking about this thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNG_pWzd9JY
"taekwondo champion's slayer" is a pretty comical way of describing things. It looked to me more like a typical friendly exchange like you see at most seminars. Hardly any sort of a challange match. Even Wu Lianzhi says in the clip that they just exchanged a few techniques. (我跟他过了四招，只四下。）
I must admit, your use of the word "fight", in this context, is. . . ."creative".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNG_pWzd9JY
"taekwondo champion's slayer" is a pretty comical way of describing things. It looked to me more like a typical friendly exchange like you see at most seminars. Hardly any sort of a challange match. Even Wu Lianzhi says in the clip that they just exchanged a few techniques. (我跟他过了四招，只四下。）
Bajifreak, that fight with the taekwondo champion was a fake, right? This counts as a lie. LOL
I must admit, your use of the word "fight", in this context, is. . . ."creative".
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