Chen & Yang Tai Chi Jian - Sword forms?

[Bob]

Thanks again - I read over the link and noted that Yang Kui-shan was sent to learn wushu from Li Shuwen not to teach him the sword - as far as I know Li Shuwen did not have a sword form or practice but saw Zhang Xiangwu teaching Liu Yunqiao the kun wu sword (purportedly taught to him by Song Weiyi - cited from Liu Yunqiao's sword book) and thought it was not effective without fajin expression.

So Li Shuwen picked up the sword and, based on his spear expertise, put in places of fajin and that is how Liu Yunqiao baji line came to have a baji sword.

However, it might be possible that Li Shuwen may have had a sword practice taught in other lines of his baji practitioners - it's hard to accurately sort all this out.

[origami_itto]

Click on the link and you can see that document appears on the 1940s.

No the 1948 Stamp shows a change of ownership from Wu Gongzao to Li Duo to pay a debt. Li Duo returned the book later.

It was not made public in any form until 1985.

In 1993, a second copy written in the same handwriting was made public by the Yang family.

It's hard to imagine the Chen family calling their stuff Taijiquan till after the Yangs popularized it.

We do not call it Taiji.

Really the name is the least important aspect, but I do believe that the evidence clearly supports the Chens adopting the name after the Yangs popularized it.

So let's say the Wang Zhongyue Conceal and Reveal spear is the earliest mention: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... ar-manual/

That document is suspect, it's got a bunch of modern Chen routines and the Yang form sequence. It can't be verified earlier than 1936.

So in 1875, there's Banhou's "Explaining Taiji Principles" https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

There are two copies made in the same hand, one appears to be a rushed copy of the other. One was kept and stamped by members of the Wu family and outside collectors and was made public in part in 1980s. The other was kept by the Yang family till the 90s. They both claim Banhou wrote it (at least it's his handwriting) after Yang Lu Chan died to keep from losing the family secrets.

Banhou was tutored by Wu Yu Hsiang, who claimed to have gotten the Salt Shop Classics from his brother, which included the Wang Zhongyue "Treatise of Tai Chi Boxing", in the 1850s, the earliest datable copy of which is in Li Yiyu's "for Hao Weizhen to cherish" collection of classics dated 1881 https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -classics/

Weng Donghe was likely in the palace in a role to write a poem about a kung fu guy sometime in the late 1850s-1870s most likely.

The Chen's have no reference to the name before 1910s or something, in public OR private form or claim. I don't get why people try to say otherwise.

[windwalker]

Really the name is the least important aspect, but I do believe that the evidence clearly supports the Chens adopting the name after the Yangs popularized it.

.

agree


The name of something important relative to expectations of what it represents.

The origin claim seems to be based on the differences said to be an incomplete transmission. " " ok
Instead of a unique, different development derived from a base system...

all of which doesn't matter unless one is looking for a historical based method with a well documented training program .

Tung, and CMC methods based on yang style, recognized as family methods representative of their unique developments ..
Just as the yang method is it's own method unto itself.

Interesting enough my teacher after awhile no longer referred to our practice as "yang" style feeling it was too different from it to be noted as such...
In his later yrs, simply referred to our practice as "taiji"



do agree its the results one is looking for...

In your path looks like you've found a teacher, method,
one that resonates with what you're looking for

best of luck

[everything]

from kano down through maeda to gracie, obviously some things changed. nobody now would claim marcelo garcia does the same exact art the same exact way as kano did even though you can "draw a line" between "some dots". yes sure you have some tongue in cheek claims of "basically just judo" or "this is ne waza".

[zrm]

Thanks again - I read over the link and noted that Yang Kui-shan was sent to learn wushu from Li Shuwen not to teach him the sword

Oops, sorry, yeah that makes more sense. I'll edit the original comment.

[Graculus]

@Bob I remember hearing the story about Li Shuwen adding spear fajin to the sword, and was looking around the web for it the other day and came across something else interesting. From on a newspaper cutting from 1933 (the translation is not mine):

On May 19, 1933, Tianjin Yishibao interviewed Master Li Shuwen.
Question: "Sir, you are very skilled in martial arts, but what kind of weapons are you good at?"
Answer: "Long, short, double, single, almost all of them have been practiced. The main ones are Xingzhe stick, Wuxing sword, double sword is Wansheng double sword, single sword is Dingtang sword, big sword is Yanyue sword (Chunqiu sword), spear It's Liuhe spear, boxing is Bajiquan, and crossbow and five arrows, both short and single, all of them are included.”

In the additional notes it has more information on some of the above including:
Dingtang Dao, that is, Ye Zhan Jiumen Shisan Dao, was created by Li Shuwen's master, there is no Huo Yao Dao (Liuhe Single Sword), and the original Mengcun "old frame" single sword is Huo Yao Dao.
The Five Elements Sword, in Li Shuwen's Baji Gate, is relatively rare. Most of the disciples of the disciples practice Kunwu Sword (from Liu Yunqiao in Taiwan), Chunyang Sword, and Qingping Sword
https://min.news/en/culture/ec7dcd7e7b9a73720bef82addfbe7874.html

There is also that video on Youtube of Huo Qingyun performing a jian form, but I am not sure which one it is.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Bob]

@Bob I remember hearing the story about Li Shuwen adding spear fajin to the sword, and was looking around the web for it the other day and came across something else interesting. From on a newspaper cutting from 1933 (the translation is not mine):

On May 19, 1933, Tianjin Yishibao interviewed Master Li Shuwen.
Question: "Sir, you are very skilled in martial arts, but what kind of weapons are you good at?"
Answer: "Long, short, double, single, almost all of them have been practiced. The main ones are Xingzhe stick, Wuxing sword, double sword is Wansheng double sword, single sword is Dingtang sword, big sword is Yanyue sword (Chunqiu sword), spear It's Liuhe spear, boxing is Bajiquan, and crossbow and five arrows, both short and single, all of them are included.”

In the additional notes it has more information on some of the above including:
Dingtang Dao, that is, Ye Zhan Jiumen Shisan Dao, was created by Li Shuwen's master, there is no Huo Yao Dao (Liuhe Single Sword), and the original Mengcun "old frame" single sword is Huo Yao Dao.
The Five Elements Sword, in Li Shuwen's Baji Gate, is relatively rare. Most of the disciples of the disciples practice Kunwu Sword (from Liu Yunqiao in Taiwan), Chunyang Sword, and Qingping Sword
https://min.news/en/culture/ec7dcd7e7b9a73720bef82addfbe7874.html

There is also that video on Youtube of Huo Qingyun performing a jian form, but I am not sure which one it is.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

That is an interesting find - mulling it over in my mind, Liu Yunqiao taught the pigua dao and double dao and it had to surely come from Li Shuwen - also we had Qingping sword but saw only a part of it as it was felt that it was too long of a set to learn when we had the kun wu sword, a taijiquan sword and tge san cai Jian - so it does look like Li Shuwen had a sword practice -

Interestingly I heard from more than one wutan top disciple that probably they only got about 60% of what Liu Yunqiao knew - breaks my heart as to what has been lost

[wayne hansen]

The only Fa Jin the sword needs is in the sharpening

[Bob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQo0KbdYdc

Wudang Sword - practiced by the instructor of Shandong Guoshu Hall and a direct disciple of Sun Lutang!