Gus Kaparos vs Novell Bell

[shawnsegler]

Always drama in the rotten apple.

The latest : http://nysanda.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/the-worst-lie/

[grzegorz]

Interesting how these almost always just turn into boxing matches or grappling when allowed.

Btw, I went to a UFC and I have to say that everyone should go to at least one.

Also I didn't like his corner laughing.

[windwalker]

Interesting how these almost always just turn into boxing matches or grappling when allowed.

I never quite understood this either, with few exceptions its been the same as long as I can remember since the early 70s.
one thing I always look for is the stepping, how this is done with the rest of the body.


It would seem that with many CMA people they never reach the point where what they do is free and adaptive like boxing or some grappling styles.
one might ask the question weather it ever really worked, or maybe the type of fighting has changed to much.
note: not saying it isn't or can't be done, just that with most competitive events, its not IMO evident

all the threads on CMA power training, tactics, and training, mma competitors might ask if CMA tactics or training, are so effective
why is it not adopted or used competitively out side of their own specialized events.
I for one am not interested in competitive events, others might be.

I think the SCA
http://www.sca.org/activities/chivarts.html
has a better model for CMA to follow.
one that fosters preserving and seeks to understand

usage through usage based on a time period in which
the arts where developed and used.

[I am...]

Nothing wrong with what Novell did there (at least for the first half of the video, which is all I watched). He looks like he has fought before and took some of the concepts of his style and integrated those successfully into his fighting (something most that post about martial arts on the internet have little to no ability to do). Whether his fighting was up to his standard, or those of his system, I can't say since I don't practice his style. The other guy has a strong will and jaw to take those shots and not quit, but didn't seem to have the fighting experience to make up for the size and reach difference that was present.

I am still shocked that Novell got in there.

[I am...]

Interesting how these almost always just turn into boxing matches or grappling when allowed.

I never quite understood this either, with few exceptions its been the same as long as I can remember since the early 70s.
one thing I always look for is the stepping, how this is done with the rest of the body.


It would seem that with many CMA people they never reach the point where what they do is free and adaptive like boxing or some grappling styles.
one might ask the question weather it ever really worked, or maybe the type of fighting has changed to much.
note: not saying it isn't or can't be done, just that with most competitive events, its not IMO evident

all the threads on CMA power training, tactics, and training, mma competitors might ask if CMA tactics or training, are so effective
why is it not adopted or used competitively out side of their own specialized events.
I for one am not interested in competitive events, others might be.

I think the SCA
http://www.sca.org/activities/chivarts.html
has a better model for CMA to follow.
one that fosters preserving and seeks to understand

usage through usage based on a time period in which
the arts where developed and used.

From my perspective tracking down and trying out the hands of those from other arts over the years, there is a TON of Chinese fighting method that is shown in boxing, FMA/kali/baston, various wrestling styles, and many other usable combat systems out there. The problem is generally how the CMA students train, and that most learned only part of the style without learning direct, functional methods for fighting that come with the style and are hammered in until they stick.

That does not mean that all the styles are the same or that a boxer is doing the same thing as a CMA person and vice versa, but it does mean that some of the universal truths of skilled fighting (such as proper use of distance, power generation specific to realities of combat in your preferred range that works under pressure, a defense that compliments your offense and style, etc.) can be seen in various combative disciplines out there, Chinese or not. They are rarely seen in Chinese styles because of the issues mentioned above, as well as because of the strange (to me) lack of testing and fighting present in a large percentage of schools that teach CMA. My hunch is that this is a combination of not wanting to lose face and the fact that it is easier and more attractive to a larger cross section of the human population to teach martial arts that do not force the individual to regularly risk pain and bodily harm, as well as the bitter truth that if you havent spent the 10,000 hours fighting or doing something very close to fighting, then one should not expect to be a very skilled fighter.

I wish it were different but as it stands, those that can actually fight with it are few and far between.

[Steve James]

Personally, I see a big difference between training the way people did in the past and fighting the way they did. The skills developed may be useful, but one lives or dies in the present; i.e., the way people are fighting today. I guess it's akin to a classically trained pianist playing jazz or blues. He doesn't have to adapt, but he might not be successful either. I think if you put two people in a ring and tell them to go at it, whatever happens just happens.

Anyway, afa the video, I admit I didn't watch. I've seen Novell in comps before. I know that he and others are set on showing bagua being used in competition. So, I expect that if there was circle-walking it was done to demonstrate that usage. Afa devolving into kick-boxing, I think that hitting someone in the head or body with one's hand or foot is kind of natural . Let the other guy worry about whether it's stylish.

Well, it's fun to see that this event has made internet news. I'm sure the conversation will go on for a while.

[windwalker]

for comparison

Let the other guy worry about whether it's stylish.

my point would be that if something is practiced enough seems like it would be quite hard not to do it in the manor practiced regardless whether its effective or not.
training or not, what is practiced is gen. the way it will come out.
so far with most "bagua" that I've seen clips of, they dont seem to have the flavor of the style,
maybe I'm missing something.
others may find different



not ring fighting but, fighting never the less

[northern_mantis]

The more people step in to the ring themselves the quicker they will get over their Kung fu fighting fantasy. Fighting will always look like kick boxing or mma because that is the options you have, punch, kick, throw, grapple. That being said it is always nice to see techniques being used more familiar to traditional martial arts like hip bumps and shoulder strikes in clinch and the odd spinning backfist. Ironically most of the jujitsu techniques used on the ground probably have more antiquity than any TCMA I practice.

[Bao]

... This feels like the kind of discussion thrown repeatedly in the BTDT for ten years ago...

so far with most "bagua" that I've seen clips of, they dont seem to have the flavor of the style,
maybe I'm missing something.
others may find different

Why would you want to show off your style flavor in a real fight? A good, experienced fighter would never show off any kind of intent, strength or weakness.

In a competition? In a competition style flavor is not as important as the rules of the competition. A Taekwondo rule set would make any fight look more or less taekwonod-ish. A boxing rule set would make any fight look like boxing:



And this one:

not ring fighting but, fighting never the less

Showing off stances and telegraphing your intent and your moves is quite the opposite of MA skill and combat knowledge.

The more people step in to the ring themselves the quicker they will get over their Kung fu fighting fantasy.

+1

[windwalker]

. Fighting will always look like kick boxing or mma because that is the options you have, punch, kick, throw, grapple.

right

not much more to say about this.
my main point is that what ever one practices should be reflected in what they do.
people who box tend to box, others doing bjj tend to grapple but some how CMA never
looks like CMA.

even though people spend countless hours practicing it, developing skill sets and strategies
that are hall marks of "insert style" some how when really used it doesn't look like that because
"fighting will always look like kick boxing or mma"

I have no problems with the OP's clip.
"BT" used what he practiced.

if one said they practiced n-mantis for example I would expect them to be able to
use it in a way that would tend to be indicative of the practices.

something like this



similar to the n-mantis I used to practice while in Korea.
someone coming to the class would see what is practiced is also pretty much
how its used.

[windwalker]

Showing off stances and telegraphing your intent and your moves is quite the opposite of MA skill and combat knowledge

kinda missed the point, whether it was effective or not its all he had to use, he couldnt move in any other way, that was his practice.

like this

armenian boxer fight group of turks

is he showing his intent, telegraphing his moves? or is he just doing what he trained?
looks like boxing to me. others might find different.

Why would you want to show off your style flavor in a real fight? A good, experienced fighter would never show off any kind of intent, strength or weakness.

show off? show off what?

If your a boxer guess what you'll tend to box, same with anything else, TKD tends to kick, grapple rs tend to grapple.
he didnt grapple, he didnt kick, he punched and knocked people down
something apparently he practiced

Fighting will always look like kick boxing or mma because that is the options you have, punch, kick, throw, grapple

he must have missed that
notice what happened to those that did try to "kick, throw, grapple" while he boxed
same as in the clip where the other guy was knocked down by some using CMA in a way that he trained it.

[bruce]

lol its good comedy.

my opinion is novell is a excellent martial artist who is trying to find out what works. i have felt his skills in a limited training context and i think he is a better fighter than the average "cma" person. contrary to how some may feel i think he demonstrates the arts he practices in a realistic way.

regarding the size difference:i hear so many stories about how "kung fu" is supposed to give a smaller, weaker person the skill to beat a larger stronger person.
this would have be a great chance to see this in action except it did not look to me like gus knows how to fight.

unless you are doing "self defense scenario" training i think "sparring" will have a lot in common with "kick boxing".
in self defense in my opinion you do not square up and fight. in general i think the options for self defense cma/ima you respond to being attacked or you make a preemptive attack,

========================================================================
http://guskaparosgreencloudkungfu.wordpress.com/

http://guskaparosgreencloudkungfu.wordpress.com/


copied from the youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... lGUDxSyqFc
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_lGUDxSyqFc[/youtube]

Published on Jul 30, 2014
Yesterday, Gus Kaparos of Green Cloud Kung Fu in Patchogue Long Island New York took to facebook to revise history and claim he really won his fight with Novell "Black Taoist" Bell. In response, Novell has now released a completely unedited video of this fight, and we're putting it up as a public service

On facebook, Gus Kaparos said
"I walked in the ring injured recovering from back surgery that almost left me in a wheel chair".

There are SCREEN CAPTURES from before the fight where Gus claimed he was in perfect health and said he would make "no excuses" for any injuries!

On facebook, Gus Kaparos said
"Novel chose to try to blind me with an open finger thrust"

Watch the video, THIS NEVER HAPPENED

Gus Kaparos says
"Saying that it was a TKO was a lie! There was no standing eight count and I immediately got back on my feet".

Watch this video, THAT IS A LIE... watch how many times Gus is given "rests" and can still barely continue

Gus Kaparos said
"In the second round I could have finished him off with a guillotine choke"

Watch this video, and try not to laugh so hard that you hurt yourself

Gus Kaparos said
"The rest of the time I was using my Kung Fu to control his little tantrum".

If by "control" he means getting punched in the face, kicked around the ring and not being able to block a single knee strike?

Gus Kapros then says
"The real Sifus that know their stuff could very easily see that I was was calmly controlling a much larger healthier adversary.

Watch the video, the man is living in a fantasy land of his own construction. Unable to accept reality. Writing checks with his big mouth that his body can not cash

Gus Kaparos said " I Spoke to other Sifus and they felt the only Technical loss was on Novell's part"

Only in his warped mind did Gus win... truly the man has no honor or shame

Patchogue Kung Fu should be ashamed of Gus Kaparos and Green Cloud Kung Fu

How anyone in the martial arts community could stand with this man is astounding. Do people not have any self respect anymore?

Find out all about Gus Kaparos at http://guskaparosgreencloudkungfu.wor...

You might have found this by searching:

Green Cloud Martial Arts | Gus Kaparos | green cloud kung fu | greencloud kung fu | green cloud gus kaparos | green cloud kung fu martial arts | green cloud kung fu academy | green cloud kung fu reviews | gus kaparos kung | green cloud kung fu merrick | sifu gus kaparos | gus kaparos facebook | green cloud gus kaparos | gus kaparos kung fu | kung fu sifu gus kaparos | greencloud.net gus kaparos | sifu gus kaparos | green cloud gus kaparos<<<<

[Michael]

Couldn't watch the whole video without a gun to my head, but I thought Bell was pulling all his punches and kicks and just goofing around. No idea why this sparring match took place.

[Wanderingdragon]

I like that Novell continues to try to figure out Bagua as a fighting art. I think tha his MUSU concept is gold and will become golden as soon as the fighters ALL begin to LOOK like the arts they purport to have mastered. We all can fight and fighting looks like fighting, but fighting with the art you study WILL look like the art you study, that said, we must realize, our level of proficiency in our respective arts, relies wholly on our training these arts and not adapting them.

[Ralteria]

+1