What is the dantian and why is it important?

[edededed]

I just want to say... the Japanese word "hara" just means "belly" - that's it. No special connotations.

Hara itai -> belly hurts
Biiru bara -> beer belly (hara becomes bara when you use it as a suffix)
Etc....

[D_Glenn]

After a sufficient amount of filling the Dantian by putting 意 'Yi'/ intention on the area and also physically expanding out while contracting in to solidify the abdomen plus the stress put on the area through striking and the body begins to pack this area of the lower abdomen in with flesh. The Dantian is a Daoist term, in TCM it's called 氣海 Qihai point (sea of qi). Needling this point can promote the growth of flesh while burning out fat. Putting our 'Yi' on the same point has the same effect.

I think putting our intent and attention here is good practice. Not sure about the growing of flesh and burning of fat you mention though, I find that a little hoky.. I've gone with the idea that the dantien areas contain more neuro transmitters/ nerve clusters - that sort of thing. So the idea of putting our intent there, "sinking qi to dantien", I find conducive to good practice. These areas could be in effect like "little brains".. A while back there was research that demonstrated how our gut instincts where based in scientific reality, same sort of thing.

That comes right out of Classical text on Chinese Medicine and are not really my own words, so I don't know what to tell you about that.

(I wanted to add though that while 氣海 Qihai point is represented by a dot on the skin in a meridian chart, it requires a pretty long needle to actually hit the point or 'True Dantian'. So Qihai is the same as Dantian.)

As I said in the other thread: In the [Chinese] Internal martial arts there is a saying "Every strike is a throw and every throw is a strike." This is representative of how strikes or punches are generated in the same way that one has to generate the force required to throw someone: from the core (dantian) and the legs. An IMA punch is not the same as a western punch, it's a throw that strikes.

So the dantian is also used in strikes as well as throws.

.

I disagree slightly with you here.. I agree that the dantien is involved in all movements - throw, strike, whatever.

Where I disagree is that you make it sound that there is just one way, or method of hitting in IMA. I think that there is a corelation to what is called "long power" and push hits - "strikes that throw". This "long power" is what moves a structure through space, it could look more like a strike, or it could look like a throw, but the mechanic and the result is the same. Long power is not the only way to hit someone though. A penetrating strike into a structure (not through) does not do this, it acts like more of a whip like mechanic. I've come to know this as "short power" which is not how people normally use that term, which is often conflated with "inch power".

So I basically disagree with your conclusion

"An IMA punch is not the same as a western punch, it's a throw that strikes"

When using long power you are generally right, because i would say this isn't really common in W. Boxing. However i would strongly disagree that those striking mechanics are the only way to strike in IMA. ie. always moving the targeted structure through space with the hit..

Long or short power both require 'Fali' behind it, whether it's a long Jin or short Jin depends on how you shape the Jin.

So what you say is correct. I'm not saying that every strike causes someone to fly away but if it does it is 'long jin', if it stops short, it's 'short jin'. But mechanically the two are still generated in the same manner from the Dantian.


.

[Sprint]

Just wonder to what extent this yoga breathing exercise is related to dantian. http://www.bandhayoga.com/keys_access.html and http://www.bandhayoga.com/keys_access2.html The second example mentions a number of muscles that have been talked about already. Pretty good graphics too.

[cloudz]

After a sufficient amount of filling the Dantian by putting 意 'Yi'/ intention on the area and also physically expanding out while contracting in to solidify the abdomen plus the stress put on the area through striking and the body begins to pack this area of the lower abdomen in with flesh. The Dantian is a Daoist term, in TCM it's called 氣海 Qihai point (sea of qi). Needling this point can promote the growth of flesh while burning out fat. Putting our 'Yi' on the same point has the same effect.

I think putting our intent and attention here is good practice. Not sure about the growing of flesh and burning of fat you mention though, I find that a little hoky.. I've gone with the idea that the dantien areas contain more neuro transmitters/ nerve clusters - that sort of thing. So the idea of putting our intent there, "sinking qi to dantien", I find conducive to good practice. These areas could be in effect like "little brains".. A while back there was research that demonstrated how our gut instincts where based in scientific reality, same sort of thing.

That comes right out of Classical text on Chinese Medicine and are not really my own words, so I don't know what to tell you about that.

(I wanted to add though that while 氣海 Qihai point is represented by a dot on the skin in a meridian chart, it requires a pretty long needle to actually hit the point or 'True Dantian'. So Qihai is the same as Dantian.)

As I said in the other thread: In the [Chinese] Internal martial arts there is a saying "Every strike is a throw and every throw is a strike." This is representative of how strikes or punches are generated in the same way that one has to generate the force required to throw someone: from the core (dantian) and the legs. An IMA punch is not the same as a western punch, it's a throw that strikes.

So the dantian is also used in strikes as well as throws.

.

I disagree slightly with you here.. I agree that the dantien is involved in all movements - throw, strike, whatever.

Where I disagree is that you make it sound that there is just one way, or method of hitting in IMA. I think that there is a corelation to what is called "long power" and push hits - "strikes that throw". This "long power" is what moves a structure through space, it could look more like a strike, or it could look like a throw, but the mechanic and the result is the same. Long power is not the only way to hit someone though. A penetrating strike into a structure (not through) does not do this, it acts like more of a whip like mechanic. I've come to know this as "short power" which is not how people normally use that term, which is often conflated with "inch power".

So I basically disagree with your conclusion

"An IMA punch is not the same as a western punch, it's a throw that strikes"

When using long power you are generally right, because i would say this isn't really common in W. Boxing. However i would strongly disagree that those striking mechanics are the only way to strike in IMA. ie. always moving the targeted structure through space with the hit..

Long or short power both require 'Fali' behind it, whether it's a long Jin or short Jin depends on how you shape the Jin.

So what you say is correct. I'm not saying that every strike causes someone to fly away but if it does it is 'long jin', if it stops short, it's 'short jin'. But mechanically the two are still generated in the same manner from the Dantian.


.

fair play then

[Sprint]

Looking at the vid of the guy lying on the floor moving the weight with his dantian has confused me somewhat. Why is it that his dantian is allowed to move but the rest of his body is stationery? Surely if the point is to use the dantian to connect to, or power the arms etc then they ought to be moving as a consequence of the dantian moving? Also when someone talks of moving from the dantian, does that mean that before you move you consciously engage muscles of the dantian area first?

[wiesiek]

Also when someone talks of moving from the dantian, does that mean that before you move you consciously engage muscles of the dantian area first?

I`m not moving consciously nor engage muscles of the dantian area
during technique execution
in fact, when i tryed to do so /moving consciously/ i failed most of the times /unless it was fight with someone on much lower level of the skills than i was/

this is my experience from old times

[everything]

The dantian is not a muscle. Core muscle is a separate very good concern. That, cog, the b.s. vid are red herrings. If you don't like the idea of qi hugging you should probably forget about dantian and stick to core, cog, etc. And at most "yi" and visualization. These are all scientifically accepted and practical.

If you are not an anti- qi type, just do qigong and sink qi to dantian. It seems to increase "flow" of the "current" by "storing" it in this area. Ideally that "powers" you. Like some kind of electromagnetic energy rather than mechanical energy from an electrical impulse causing tension in soft tissue that moves bones. Since you're in yiquan which doesn't seem to want to talk qi, if you do not outright dismiss the taikiken stories of WXZ, how could he have thrown Sawai as described?...And why would sawai say his heart felt struck by a needle and he was shaking? Couldn't be psychological only - the guy was fifth Dan in judo and no doubt tough.

[Sprint]

The dantian is not a muscle. Core muscle is a separate very good concern. That, cog, the b.s. vid are red herrings. If you don't like the idea of qi hugging you should probably forget about dantian and stick to core, cog, etc. And at most "yi" and visualization. These are all scientifically accepted and practical.

If you are not an anti- qi type, just do qigong and sink qi to dantian. It seems to increase "flow" of the "current" by "storing" it in this area. Ideally that "powers" you. Like some kind of electromagnetic energy rather than mechanical energy from an electrical impulse causing tension in soft tissue that moves bones. Since you're in yiquan which doesn't seem to want to talk qi, if you do not outright dismiss the taikiken stories of WXZ, how could he have thrown Sawai as described?...And why would sawai say his heart felt struck by a needle and he was shaking? Couldn't be psychological only - the guy was fifth Dan in judo and no doubt tough.

I never pay any attention to old stories mainly because of their subjective nature. But you should appreciate that mechanical forces acting on the human body can cause electrical type signals to misfire. Just look at any boxer who starts body popping after a good hit to the head. Or for that matter a KO where the electrical signals are switched off altogether. A good shot to the body can cause your bladder to involuntarily void itself.

One thing I had wondered at the start of this thread was were the descriptions of the dantian meant to be taken literally, or would they be seen as figurative and guides to physical activity. I am open to hearing differing interpretations. I do however draw the line at empty force. If the phenomena described cannot also be explained by mechanical means then it has no meaning for me.

[wiesiek]

Sprint
for you convinence i would add:
dantian for itself doesn`t work, it is important one but only the element /part of the whole thing/
i can compare it to head positioning and head movment when you are throwing someone...
If you doing it right your throw is efortless

[wiesiek]

and
direct answer for q..."was were the descriptions of the dantian meant to be taken literally, or would they be seen as figurative and guides to physical activity.."
may be not to very convinient to you:

yes, both ways!

Wow, im writing exactly like classical taoist .

[Bao]

"were the descriptions of the dantian meant to be taken literally, or would they be seen as figurative and guides to physical activity.."

Well, as you are asking for this...
... Ok, lets go to the beginning then and what was originally meant back then:

The three different dan tian were originally much philosophical creations. It's from daoist alchemy, daoyin and neijin. There is nothing "physical" or specific about the positions except that they are something we can physically feel when we are calm and relax. (no they are not acupuncture points) . On old charts you can see the locations painted as "stoves".

The top one was just described as somewhere in your head and connected to thought and emotion. The middle was connected to the breath. And the lower was where qi was stored and refined.

Remember (if you know classical chinese) that "xin" or heart was described for mind. The heart and thinking was closely related or even inseparable for early chinese thought. All your thoughts had an emotional impact. So you must control your mind to control your heart. Only when you are calm and "empty", you can be in the state that was called wuxin (the samurai used the same word for their state of mind = munnin), "no mind" or no thought ("wu" was later translated as "kong" or empty by the buddhists).

The common bodily state is "flame on top" and "water below" Fire is stored in our hearts and rises naturally upward. Water is stored in dan tian. Water sinks. This common state is in the yijing Hexagram 64 – Wei Chi – Before Completion where fire (Li) is on top and water (kan) below.

But when you are emotionally calm as controlled by the mind or by the top dantian, the heart flame (from the heart) can sink down to the lower dan tian where there is "essence" symbolised by water. The fire goes below or heat up the "stove". This is symbolised by the I-Ching as Hexagram 63 – Chi Chi – After Completion. Water/Kan is now on top and Fire/Li is below.

When you heat up water - you will have - yes - steam! Qi is steam. The early character was like the simplified today, just steam (without the rice that is)

So in order to generate qi, you must be calm and emotionally steady. But to circulate it you need breath. This is the middle dan tian. If you control the breath (deep and natural), the breath will work like a belch and can control the amount and direction of the steam.

But you need caution. To generate and circulate qi this ways need a diligent and controlled state. Just as the hexagram 64 says:" The conditions are difficult. The task is great and full of responsibility. it is nothing less than that of leading the world out of confusion back to order. but it is a task that promises success, because there is a goal that can unite the forces now tending in different directions. "
http://theabysmal.wordpress.com/2006/10 ... xagram-64/)

You see the two hexagram. The 64th hexagram is abviously after the 63th. What we have here is a movement of "returning" or going back. The state of the 64 hexagram is called the "prenatal" state". And the 63th is the postnatal. We have this terminology in neijiaquan as well. As in baguazhang, sometimes rounded, smooth and slow movements are regarded "pre-natal" and the opposite as "post-natal".

Sun Lutang in his books distinguishes neijiaquan from waijiaquan because of that Neijiaquan use and develop "pre-natal qi". Waijiaquan is only concerned for post-natal qi.

So, why is dan tian important?
1. Practicing the exercises for three dan tian and incoorporate this inour daily practice teaches us how to control our thoughts, emotions, breath and fears which is essential for martial arts.
2. When we practice neijiaquan we have the benefits from daoist "qigong". We use and develop pre-natal qi and pre-natal bodily movements which will keep us healthy and live long.

[cloudz]

Looking at the vid of the guy lying on the floor moving the weight with his dantian has confused me somewhat. Why is it that his dantian is allowed to move but the rest of his body is stationery? Surely if the point is to use the dantian to connect to, or power the arms etc then they ought to be moving as a consequence of the dantian moving? Also when someone talks of moving from the dantian, does that mean that before you move you consciously engage muscles of the dantian area first?

I think in a lot senses it's a kind of re learning. I can mostly speak from a tai chi chuan perspective as that's where the bulk of my training has been in IMA. THough I have been taught, found and used ideas and exercises from other IMA.

One of the most useful things about taiji is the slow movement, you have shi li in Yiquan, which I have done some of. Though that is much more focused, wheras taiji in my opinion can act much more so as a vehicle for training multiple neigong and weigong elements.

This may be true of shili, but my knowledge and experience of it is basic.

Anyway, slow movement gives us a great opportunity to ingrain movement mechanics into our body. If you've practiced a taiji form you'll recognise how you have to begin to be very consciouss of how and what you are doing. The training has to certainly begin on a conscious level. With progression from slow, deliberate, intentional (consciouss) graduating to faster usages, more natural (single forms, shadow boxing, pad/bag work etc.) and less consciouss of course. Often you'll need to switch back and forth to training it consciously and then trying to switch off. The less loss of "form" you can guage, I guess can tell you how much on the right track you are or not.

Like a lot of these things the goal will be to move like this - from the core - and using rotations without thought. I've found push hands to be really good for bridging this gap also. Because i use DT/core rotation in connection with my torso and arms quite evidently in this format, particularly in defense. And there's a very simple reason for this - it works.

[everything]

One thing I had wondered at the start of this thread was were the descriptions of the dantian meant to be taken literally, or would they be seen as figurative and guides to physical activity. I am open to hearing differing interpretations. I do however draw the line at empty force. If the phenomena described cannot also be explained by mechanical means then it has no meaning for me.

in that case I'd say avoid all the qigong interpretation. I'd say forget the "dantian" vocabulary since it really comes from qigong, and use "core" etc. Experientially there is some weird shit that happens, but there is no scientific knowledge afaik linking the qigong to biomechanics, and no easily demonstrated practical method to draw a link.

[Sprint]

I'm not so sure about the scientific side of things. For example it is known that regular exercise enhances longevity as well as improving the quality of life for seniors, with fewer falls, less illness, stronger immune system etc. There is also some recent research claiming that mechanical stress improves a cell's function. That mechanical stress could well be imparted by qigong.

[everything]

Yes.

To avoid the science part a little and get back to your original thoughts about understanding mechanics, let's look at other human biological and mechanical things. One thing that comes to my mind is - what is "sex drive"? Clearly there are mechanical aspects of having sex - physical mechanical actions. But first there is energy and drive itself that can come from just an idea in the brain. Where does this energy come from? It's hormones - something chemical. It "powers" the rest including the mechanics to some extent though there is "external" fitness needed as well.

If you say you want to understand things from a mechanical pov, you could understand sex acts. But to understand the drive and energy has more to do with hormones, brain regions, nervous system, etc.

The "dantian" is similarly about "energy". This energy can also "power" you but the mechanics part needs this energy and "external" fitness.

If you want to be like Ron Jeremy of MA you need both the drive, chemical, hormonal, and the physical, mechanical,
probably together. I think that's roughly what the "internal" is after in some aspect - the mechanical as well as the "energy" aspects. The sex drive example is clearly easily related to the mechanical whereas the qigong example gets more confused - it's roughly analogous but it's harder to feel qi at first and then people get caught up in esoteric vocabulary. But it's really almost as simple as the above analogy. There is some kind of energy from somewhere not necessarily mechanical but requires some work - the gong - of a bit different nature. Sex drive is natural but you can work on sinking qi to dantian as a qigong. I don't know that you can directly work on regions of the brain involved in things like sex drive but maybe indirectly. This is removed from the actual mechanics but clearly you need the energy and drive to do the mechanics. Oddly enough working the qigong helps with this other kind of energy and drive, too. It may be easiest to put the qigong in the health energy box and the core muscles part in the mechanical box and not try to relate them too much so there is no confusion about energy vs mechanics work.