Why and How Do You Use Your Spirals?

[Walk the Torque]

Again in the spirit of clarity, or even clarity of purpose, I ask the question of why we use spirals for our techniques. What is it that spirals do for your game that you couldn't do otherwise?

Then the second question is how you use them? is it to enhance your wedging or to neutralize; or have you found some other use for them?

Why bother to train them?

Interested in your replies

Conn

[Chris McKinley]

Spiralling changes the angle of incidence of force vectors on a continuous basis and along a 3-dimensional axis, making direct resistance considerably more difficult. A spiral structure can also increase the structural integrity along an axis compared to strictly parallel support vectors.

[Mut]

Spirals help add or deflect force, Spiralling helps stick to the other guy or spit them out. Spirals are so implicit in the why and how of training I don't think I can pin a how you use them

As for why bother with them, to put it simply... power

[Walk the Torque]

Spiralling changes the angle of incidence of force vectors on a continuous basis and along a 3-dimensional axis, making direct resistance considerably more difficult. A spiral structure can also increase the structural integrity along an axis compared to strictly parallel support vectors.

Chris,
This is beautifully put.

I would offer in addition, for the why, that the use of spirals negates the necessity for larger movements and achieves results with seemingly less effort.

However it does not really say how you would use your spirals. Due to reading your posts for some time now I am pretty sure you would have a number of ways to apply spirals. I was particularly interested in peeps actual manifested techniques using the salient features of the internal styles. For instance, David and I were getting off yesterday on the efficiency of a rear choke to throw with the use of whole body spirals. Also when working on a splitting arm break, we found the tightness of the movement very rewarding when adding the spirals in.

Mut,

Yeah good take on it, but I was interested in the how. I mean there must be an area of your game (striking, throwing or grappling) that you use spirals more than others.

[Void]

I think of it quite generally, ime if you work from your feet and turn at the same time it generates a spiral.

If you just turn you get centripetal and centrifugal forces but no rising and falling, so you could generate a spinning force but it will not have come from the ground. You will though have a centre.

If you just rise and fall and then take that in a forward, backward, or sideways direction you'll be like a hurricane - you'll be moving from the ground but also get momentum that moves your centre out.

A tornado moves in spirals because it has rising and falling, turning, and a centre.

So we can can generate movement going in or out, up or down whilst maintaining central equilibrium.

Oops I'm late for work! ...

[internalenthusiast]

some of the practical advantages of spirals, in terms of physics, have already been mentioned.

i'd add that, in my understanding, even if this has to be "learned", it IMO is the natural way of movement.

http://www.alexandercenter.com/dartspirals.html

this article was shared with me many years ago by steve james. it's not about MA, but i think the understanding of anatomy still applies.

i think everything does/can/should, include this.

spirals, as you point out, can be large, or tightly compressed. in which case a seemingly "linear" movement can express, and its effect can be greatly increased by, spiral movement which is not at all obvious to the casual observer.

to try to answer your second question, indirectly: from my POV, just about anything can include the element of spiral movement.

the tcc i follow is basically yang style. some would say yang does not include spiral movement. but my understanding is that it does, intrinsically.

i'm sure, from reading your posts, and seeing some of your clips, that you already understand this, but: su dong chen told me that he considers the "essence" of bagua to be spiral movement.

best...

[Sprint]

Spiraling within the legs (adductor/abductor muscles) automatically engages the some muscles in and around the core/dantien area. This increases stabilization and means that when you throw a punch it will feel a lot more solid.

[Jingang]

Here is a visual aid to what's been said already:

The affect of different vectors on an object's (on the left) collision:


The combination of all three powers in heng quan (variation):


http://internalarts.weebly.com/power-generation.html

[Mut]

i am not great at throws so i guess my spirals lack there. unbalancing from a bridge is probably the first thing that springs to mind with regard to where I use more spiraling. But to be honest I don't really think about spiral or not... i will pay it some mind over the coming weeks and get back to you....

[Josealb]

Nice Poser apps.

The great benefit of spirals, is that you can do with much less momentum (force increased by speed, thru space). When everything clicks together and drills, you can generate power with very little distance.

One thing that im learning now is how different spirals that contradict each other (go in opposite directions) work. Anybody has any experience in this?

[Chris McKinley]

Conn,

Thanks for the compliment. RE: "However it does not really say how you would use your spirals.". You're right, it doesn't. It was late, I was lazy, and I had to finish responding to some whiney-butt comments on other threads.

RE: "Due to reading your posts for some time now I am pretty sure you would have a number of ways to apply spirals.". Yup. Since my Baguazhang comes to me as a hybrid of mostly Gao with some Zhang and JRQ-ish Yin, there are different flavors in it than in pure Gao proper. For instance, there's significantly more coiling and smaller-frame movement and from what I've seen, a much greater emphasis on the Swimming Dragon material. That's not good or bad, or any kind of slight against Gao style; it's just different flavors. What you can do with it still depends on the individual regardless of which style you're talking about. Similarly, there's a helluva lot more coiling in the smaller frame Taijiquan I was taught than in typical YCF or CMC Yang style, and in several cases, even more than is found in analogous Chen material.

Like Mut referenced, spirals are such a pervasive characteristic of my IMA that it might be more meaningful to single out instances where they are not used. However, from a pragmatic perspective, when I introduce the concept to students for application, I often explain it in terms of gyroscopic action. Here are a couple of examples:

1) Face your partner and have him stand with his palm out and facing you. Place your own palm against his and instruct him to both maintain contact with your palm and to use just enough force to resist you pushing your palm through to touch his chest. He can more or less keep you in stalemate indefinitely. Then, while he's resisting in the forward direction, quickly turn your palm sideways 90 degrees. In order for him to keep pressure against your palm, he will have to turn his palm with yours and change the angle of his resistance. Now simply press your palm forward again toward his chest and he will not have enough friction or direct resistance to stop you from touching him.

2) Have your partner stand at ease. Place your fingertips at the side of his face on his cheekbone and instruct him to use only his neck muscles to resist your turning his head. He can do this quite easily. Next, without moving your hand, place the heel of your palm under his jawline and instruct him to resist your pushing his head backward. Again, he can generally do this easily. Finally, and again without moving your hand, instruct him to resist both your turning his head and your pushing his head backward at the same time.

Begin applying the same level of pressure along either axis, but begin quickly and randomly changing back and forth from one axis to the other without increasing the total amount of pressure you've used all along. He will very quickly fail to predict which way you are going to apply your pressure and in so doing, will allow you to either turn his head or push it back, thus ending the demonstration. This happens because he is unable to apply significant resistance in more than one direction at a time or simultaneously along two different axes.

This is an illustration of both how spiral attacks can "get through", so to speak, and also of how manipulating a person's structure along two simultaneous axes makes it very difficult for him to effectively resist both at the same time.

BTW, be very, very careful with applying spiralling takedowns with a rear naked choke. It can turn what might be a harmless blood choke into a mechanical injury of either the pharynx, the carotid sinus, the venous flaps of the neck veins, or traumatic hyperpronation of the atlas/axis of the skull or the cervical vertebrae...any of which could also be lethal. I'm warning you of this from personal experience.

[Bhassler]

http://www.alexandercenter.com/dartspirals.html

You can also look at the articular surfaces of the joints and see that the skeleton itself is shaped to move in spirals.

[BruceP]

I was going to talk about this in the 'Weapons' thread yesterday but didn't wanna ruin Ghandi's day with that kinda vibe.

Leather belts are laterally stiff and in order to maintain smooth flow or to keep their momentum after impact (the buckle end out), the whole body spirals into the wrist in an oblique manner. Oblique movement patterns have their drawbacks though. One shouldn't commit too much force into spiralling on slippery or unstable ground, like wet grass or gravel, unless they're wearing cleated shoes - like a golfer or baseballer. Unlike bats and golf clubs where the spiral has terminus, a belt can be moved through continous spirals as long as they accomodate that lateral stiffness.

As an aside, belts made from cotton webbing aren't as restrictive in this regard, but they can't be drawn through the loops as quickly or smoothly as a leather belt.

Anyway, practicing manipulations with a leather belt is one way I use spirals. Footing isn't an issue while practicing on man-made surfaces, but natural surfaces can really trip a person up if they haven't played with their explosive spiralling on tricky ground.

[Marilyn]

It is interesting that DNA is shaped in spirals as are the energies in the galaxies, tornados, cyclones...
Spirals show up in the growth of trees, in the matrix of flowers, in the flowing of a river.
Energy spirals through our bodies.

If I can apply my whole body power to an opponents point with a spiral, it works like a spring that stores and releases
power. If my oppenent is stronger than I am a spiral allows me roll right through their resistance. Spiraling energy is all over
in internal movement. Circles become spirals...

[Void]

Like a circle in a spiral? like a wheel within a wheel?