Pulling Guard

[johnwang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ib2zicFVnM

If you feel that your opponent is a much stronger striker or thrower, you use "pulling guard" to pull him down. Why you are on the bottom, you then manage to play your favor ground game. IMO, the "pulling guard" is a true MA killer. If you don't want to train kick, punch, and throw, you can just use this move to disable your opponent's many years of hard training in striking and throwing. It's a "short cut" in your combat skill training and there is no question about that.

If you

- lie down on the ground, even the best Judoka in the world won't be able to throw you.
- run like hell, even the best boxer in the world won't be able to hit you.
- kill yourself, even the best assassin in the world won't be able to kill you.

It may sounds like jokes but there are some truth in it.

- What's your opinion on this?
- Should "pulling guard" be encouraged in sport?
- Does it have any true combat value on the street?
- Is it worthwhile to spend time to develop such skill?
- What's the best counters for this?

[grzegorz]

To me it's a defensive position. Some people are very good with what they can do from there and will jump guard. I'm not a big fan of it, but when your competing in a sport you do what you need to do to win and if you think the other guy is better at takedowns then why not surprise them? I've never jumped guard from my feet but I have had pull this on me and surprise me with an armbar. I'm thinking foot sweep and the next thing I know I'm trying to defend myself from an armbar and even if I do defend against that the other guy is already a move ahead of me because he's controlling the game since I wasn't ready.

I do believe the guard is important. If someone has you pinned to the ground and you can get them into your guard you can turn things around and attack with strikes or submissions, sweep or create space to stand-up. For women's self-defense it seems like an important thing to work on too.

In general though it would be nice if BJJ had a better balance between throws and ground work, but for now people like me have to do BJJ and Judo if we want that.

[wiesiek]

it has some value,
particulary if you feel really strong in ground game
and
only in sport
in real life - suicide
-
diggin` in sport aspect of"Pulling..":
i dont think, that it should be encouraged in sport _-
it is very dull for general audience, when two guys in gi rolls around the mat trying to outsmart e/a .

To became more popular means:
give them good/interesting not only for couple of MA`s maniacks/ show ,
better show= better payment...etc,

for real life usage...
well,
iv`e been in street fights couple of times
and
NEVER have to play "ground game"

Regardles of everything what i `m writting,
due to contemporary MA`s rules it became quite popular, and you have to be pepared + learn how turn someone "pulling.." for your own advantage

[middleway]

IMO, the "pulling guard" is a true MA killer. If you don't want to train kick, punch, and throw, you can just use this move to disable your opponent's many years of hard training in striking and throwing.

If this is true then why train the other things?

Reality IMHO however is that this move is far more relevant to Grappling sport than street (although its relevant to street in some situations)

'street' is not just about the physical actions you take. Its also about the pre-fight, the situational awareness, the weapons, the group attacks etc.

Also put a knife in someone's hand, or bring even one more attacker in the situation and 'pulling guard' is a ridiculous move ... no matter how you look at it!

It may be a Throwing sport 'killer' .... but a MA killer ... i dont think so ... not by a long shot.

Just my opinion.

Cheers
Chris

[everything]

only for grappling sport. doesn't even seem to work for mma nowadays

edit: there is still a "short cut" of go to wrestling type clinch and take down, not necessarily to guard. however the short cut just isn't enough against the guys who are skilled in all aspects of mma. i think the machida or cung le approach to clinch is a lot smarter - immediate takedown and/or immediate anti-takedown and/or immediate backout. no sticking around to eat knees, uppercuts, or risk getting taken down for ground work.

that seems like a general defense to not being in position to be taken down by guard pulling. I have a feeling you have better advice.

[fuga]

Even in BJJ class, I avoid pulling guard when possible. I'd rather be on top, mostly because giving up 50 lbs makes being on the bottom a bummer.

[sinkpoint]

It's not a bad move, but relies too much on accurate placements of the feet and body.
Plus if the guy if competent on his balance and reflexes, it's likely that you'll end up on your ass and in an inferior position.

As a surprise attack it probably will work, but how should the follow up be? It'll be a bit slow to close and engage when you are on your back.

[Juan]

For those of us that are not very skilled on the ground, it is very difficult to fight someone who knows what they are doing if they pull guard on you. I've only played around a few times with a couple of people in my gym who do BJJ. One of them is very good and pulled guard on me and had me tapping within a few seconds. I think he is only a blue belt but very good at what he does. So yeah, I think that the guard is valid and worth training. May not be great against multiple opponents but if you're in a one on one situation and the guy doesn't expect it or maybe even tackles you to the ground it can be very effective.

[Dmitri]

In my limited understanding you "pull" guard only when you get sucker-punched or slip on a banana peel or something similar and you FIND YOURSELF on your back on the ground with the guy trying to pummel you from the top. You don't just go and "pull guard" for no apparent reason (we've seen it a lot in competition but personally I'm not in the slightest interested in competition... )

[grzegorz]

BJ will pull guard in grappling competitions but not in MMA.

This is a case where the other guy is well known for his takedowns. I might be hard for some to understand but BJJ strategy isn't like anything else out there, in a lot of way you basically wait for the other guy to make a mistake and then play your game. As BJ does here...



Anyone doing BJJ knows that especially after the episode in Ultimate Fighter when dude jumps guard for an armbar and gets his head slammed on the pavement.

[ashe]

what i found when i was spending a lot of time rolling with some grapplers was that pulling guard was just the most energy efficient thing to do when confronted with a take down. but not necessarily a good idea in self-defense.

[johnwang]

what i found when i was spending a lot of time rolling with some grapplers was that pulling guard was just the most energy efficient thing to do when confronted with a take down. but not necessarily a good idea in self-defense.

It may be one of the most energy efficient throws since you don't have to carry your opponent's weight on your back. If you use pulling guard, in the middle of your backward falling, you may still be able to pull your opponent to your side and rotate your body and end up on top of your opponent. It's like to throw a fishing nets, an official SC throw except you throw yourself down (the official SC 撒 (Sa) - fishing nets throw, you are not suppose to fall down but lean backward). In sport, you have to follow rules. If you allow elbow on the ground then I just don't know how can you prevent yourself from eating your opponent's elbow when you are on the bottom. If your opponent's right hand holds on your right lapel, his elbow is already there for your throat when you fall backward.

I'll be more interest in the combat value (self-defense) than the sport value here. Since on street, you don't know what's on the ground, it's risky to fall backward.

It may be a Throwing sport 'killer' .... but a MA killer ... i dont think so ... not by a long shot.

You are right! It will hurt the throwing art more than the striking art. Many threads in other forums have discussion such as, "What do you do if your opponent's throwing skill is better than yours?" One of the suggestion is to use "pulling guard". I just don't think this is a right attitude to solve that problem. You should develop your throwing skill and make it better instead.

[grzegorz]

Even in BJJ class, I avoid pulling guard when possible. I'd rather be on top, mostly because giving up 50 lbs makes being on the bottom a bummer.

The interesting about that is usually the smaller guys are some of the best guard players just for that reason.

Check out this vid on Eddie Bravo.

[Michael Dasargo]

I have been training Gracie Jiu-jitsu for a short time, and it is my understanding that Helio Gracie's philosophy is to exaust your opponents strength before making your move. This takes away the opponents size/strength factor.

"pulling guard", in my opinion, is great for sport but has limited advantage for survival.

Letting the clock tic on the streets can be as dangerous as not knowing how to survive a ground fight.

there's a time and place for everything,
Mike

[H2O]

If I got into it with most people on this forum, my game plan is going to be to pile drive their head into the floor. If I end up fighting John Wang though, my plan is going to change in a hurry as my greatest strength (throws) just became my greatest weakness. You can bet your last dollar I would try to pull guard with a quickness on Master Wang, it's my only chance. His SC is better than my Judo, and his Longfist is better than my Muay Thai. If I can get him on the ground though, just maybe I can steal his Kung Fu down there.

Or maybe I got into it with a good friend who had a little too much to drink. I don't want to hurt the guy, So I might pull guard, sweep him, and just smother him until he chills out.

Maybe a big guy comes barreling down on top of me and I'm simply in a position to pull guard because of his forward momentum. Why not pull guard and snap it into an armbar if that's what he gives me?

The guard, and pulling guard, is one tool in the toolbox. It should be used when it's appropriate and not used when something else is more appropriate.

On a related note, I feel that saying one should never go to the ground in the street is just as dumb as saying one should always go to the ground in the street. It all depends on the situation.