What Taiji techniques to train on a heavy bag?

[Juan]

Anyone train Taiji techniques on a heavy bag besides punching and kicking? Any one train thins like the push, single whip, etc, etc...? Can't say that I do but I was thinking about that today. What would it feel like to practice pushing on a heavy bag? Is this a good idea, stupid, or waste of time?

[gretel]

my teacher does it. anything in the form that looks like it could make contact. e.g., the left hand coming into single whip; shoulder pushes. you don't necessarily have to hit hard, just get a feel for what a strike would feel like in that movement.

gretel

[johnwang]

What Taiji techniques to train on a heavy bag?

If Taiji is the only style that you train, you can train any Taiji offense move if you want to (I don't know how to use heavy bag to train defense move such as LU). If Taiji is one of the many styles that you train, you won't be able to distinguish what style you will train anyway.

When you stand in front of a heavy bag (or enemy), you should not think about styles.

Lou Shi Ao Bu

Since all style has palm strike, the power all come from the bending back leg that borrow the counter force from the ground, when you strike your palm on that heavy bag, you can't really tell whether your are training Taiji brush knee, Baiji tiger climb mountain, LF willow palm, or SC diagonal strike. It all follows the the same body mehanic and Fajin principle.

[Andy_S]

Juan:

If you are doing bosing or kickboxing, your bagwork will be far in advance of anything I have seen Taiji peeps do in the last 15 years. (Though I would LOVE to see some decent Taiji bagwork).

The bag as a training tool has existed in boxing since at least the 18th century. The reason being, I think, is that boxing and kickboxing are "one handed" or "one legged" - you hit with one hand or leg and that is the strike. The problem with training Taiji techniques on a bag is that most are 'two handed" - ie the rear hand is trapping, pulling, etc, the opponent while the front arm does the damage, or vice versa - so you really need a bag or dummy with an arm(s)-like attachment to train the full technique.

However, the collapsing nature of Taiji strikes - hand, to elbow, to shoulder - can be profitably employed. But still, there is not, AFAIK, an ideal piece of equipment for training Taijiquan. Boxers and kickboxers are fortunate in this respect, as the bag is an excellent tool for power and combination training in those styles of fighting.

I'd advise you to keep your bagwork as it is, then add whatever Taiji you can to the kickboxing mix.

[Andy_S]

Oh, and to answer a specific question: I don't see much point in training 'pushing' at all.

[H2O]

Anyone train Taiji techniques on a heavy bag besides punching and kicking? Any one train thins like the push, single whip, etc, etc...? Can't say that I do but I was thinking about that today. What would it feel like to practice pushing on a heavy bag? Is this a good idea, stupid, or waste of time?

Try this. Make the end posture of "Step forward, deflect and punch. The one that comes right after 'brush knee and twist step. Your right fist is touching the bag. Push the bag with your left hand and let the bag swing back into your right fist. It will probably knock you backward at first. The goal is to not let the bag move you while staying relaxed. This one builds Peng and root. When you got it down with the fist, you can train other psoture's the same way.

[H2O]

One more thing. Once you can hold the static postur and not let the bag move you, you start punching into the bag as it swings toward you.

[Wanderingdragon]

Get the bag rolling in a circle with your forearm as if sticking to an opponent, use your waist and forearm to direct the bag, changing hands with foot work , follow the bag and stick to it , bring the bag in close then redirect it . The heavier the bag the better , good cardio and breath work to have somthing with weight push back , good work for yeilding and redirecting practice. If you get the bag going good , it will begin to chase you if you miss a step, if it hits you , you lose , start again. Great work for the waist and center , also helps in developing conection if you can work from the ground through the waist to the forearm.

[H2O]

Get the bag rolling in a circle with your forearm as if sticking to an opponent, use your waist and forearm to direct the bag, changing hands with foot work , follow the bag and stick to it , bring the bag in close then redirect it . The heavier the bag the better , good cardio and breath work to have somthing with weight push back , good work for yeilding and redirecting practice. If you get the bag going good , it will begin to chase you if you miss a step, if it hits you , you lose , start again. Great work for the waist and center , also helps in developing conection if you can work from the ground through the waist to the forearm.

I do this one sometimes too. It's a good drill. You can also 'shoot' your arm forward and 'roll' the energy past you off your forearm to develop bridging and entering.

[cerebus]

Those sound like some good drills with the bag. Cool, thanks.

[neijia_boxer]

i've played around with these with mma gloves:
pung- whipping back hand
ji- fajing press to bag
an- fa jing push to bag, or duck then angle off line of attack and fajing push
brush knee- palm strike to face
step- parry- punch as a three combo attack= right backfist- left jab- right cross
high pat horse- chop to throat
seperate foot- foot jab
rooster on one leg- independent knee
bend bow shoot tiger- angle step then punch
step up to seven star- dirty boxing uppercut
sweep lotus- outside kick to bag
punch opponet ears- play around with this with one arm is a coiling hook

[Wanderingdragon]

I would suggest not practicing any striking methods on the bag until you are quite sure that you have the body and not the muscle doing the work. That said, the heavy bag is quite the punch dummy for practicing the proper fist on, no wraps as this wqay you learn to punch squarely with connection, preferably on a course canvas bag , this way you will rip the skin off your knuckles if you are punching incorrectly and you won't be able to hit the bag again until they heal , unless you're one of those who thinks a caloused hand is more prepared for fighting , myself I prefer soft hands. The bag is also great for practicing palms, and if you are not connected your wrists, elbows, and shouldersas well as lower back will suffer, ahhh yes the heavy bag, the great corrector. If you wrap your hands you will only learn to throw hands, nothing internal there, but if you strike right the only thing that will feel it is the bag you strike and the floor that grounds you, excellent breathwork here too.

[johnwang]

Sometime I prefer to use palm strike on the bag instead of to use fist. When I use my palm, I will less likely to think about my hand but my body. Also I don't need to wear any gloves when I train palm strike.

In the following clip (I love this clip), you can see the same drill is done by using palms and fists. IMO, the palms drill is always better because the palm will have more function (palm strike, fingers jab, grab, deflect, ....) than the fist that only has striking function.

[r.anderson]

I will defer to the greater collective experience in this room. However, I would like to ask if the heavy bag is as appropriate in training for Tai Chi as in boxing, then what separates Tai Chi from boxing?

I have been told and also read from many internal style proponents that bag work (striking metal shavings, etc) is unnecessary and potentially counter productive in the development of your chi-pathways. My principle instructor was once asked this question and his answer was that it might be acceptable to use a bag for any of the strikes, kicks, presses, etc., provided that not much physical force (li) was used. Too much physical force trains your body to constrict its muscles during a strike which will effectively close off many of your chi pathways and weaken your offensive capabilities. He went further to say that using Tai Chi to "simply pound somebody is like using a scalpel to cut off their arms". It is good to train with contact, but as Tai Chi is all about applying precise force backed with chi, he recommended training with a lampshade or a balloon over a bag.

For those of you unsure about training Push, I would suggest looking into fa jin. It isn't muscle, it's chi.

[johnwang]

Sit back, open a beer, light your pipe, and put your feet on the stool.

I have always believed that Obama should invade some country, any country so we can have someting fun to watch on TV.