Why are there secrets?

[Haoran]

Martial Artists, Qigong, and really, tradesmen too, kept secrets of their trade in the past for obvious reasons. Today it's either monatary or dangerous for idiots to learn (they will either hurt themselves (qigong/neigong) or hurt someone else (not in control of themselves - using techniques to hurt someone).

Some teachers just don't want the responsibility and/or are very careful who they bring into the inner circle for those reasons.

BTW,
Excessive Greed (it controls you) = bad (emotion controlling you).
Desire to succeed -> more money -> support family -> Balanced = Good.

Anything in excess is no good.

[Muad'dib]

btw, the use of the koan as an example is rather poor, if for no other reason that there are no "answers" to koan.

[cdobe]

Some stuff might give you a cutting edge over others, so you don' give it away lightly. Combatively or in other ways. Another thing is that other instructors, who don't have a lot to offer themselves, take your traditional exercises without giving any credit to your tradition, tell lies about their origins and compete with you as teachers.

CD

[Doc Stier]

I'm really interested to know, why in the Information Age, that some teachers refuse to pass everything they know, and furthermore risk that their knowledge will die with them.

I agree with others here in believing that there really are no secrets, per se. In many traditional styles, however, there is detailed information and training practices which are considered proprietary material, and thus not for general public dissemination. Oftentimes, such guarded materials are in fact a part of other styles as well, although practitioners of each style may not be aware of the common ground until they encounter the same material while learning another style.

In other instances, specific form sets, solo and partner drills, chi-kung and meditation practices, techniques for specialized fighting applications, and so forth, seem to exist only in one particular style, and are usually reserved for advanced level students who are earmarked to perpetuate all of the style's various methods as teachers to the next generation of students within the official lineage of the style. This is traditionally how each generation of acknowledged master instructors prevents having their knowledge die with them.

So, in one sense, I guess you could label such material as 'secret', but only from the perspective of outsider's looking in, who are not privy to such material as a part of the style's 'inner circle' of practitioners.

[dtactics]

Some stuff might give you a cutting edge over others, so you don' give it away lightly. Combatively or in other ways. Another thing is that other instructors, who don't have a lot to offer themselves, take your traditional exercises without giving any credit to your tradition, tell lies about their origins and compete with you as teachers.

CD

These are legitimate reasons IF the person before you isn't worthy of student status. Which can easily be solved by turning them away. I think the question implies that your are already accepted as a worthy student and still "secrets" are kept from you. To the latter, I say the allure of keeping secrets for some enables them to control and retain their students. Many teachers feign that simple things are really secrets to uncover over time, so that they may milk it for all its worth and promote other agendas, philosophies, religions etc.

I heard VV tell an instructor a long time ago "I do these crazy movements and demos at seminars because people come to me expecting to see it. It's un-necessary and you only need a few basics. Breath, movement, posture, balance." I must confess it felt a lot like a secret because other "teachers" indoctrinated me to believe it involved much more than that.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I've nothing against money. Only against using the promise of "secrets" to make the money. I believe that if a student is paying their dues and doing the work, and has shown themselves to be a decent person who won't abuse what they've learned, they should be taught everything which the teacher can teach them.

Hi cerebus,

What would constitute "abuse [of] what they've learned", in your opinion?

Thanks,
Dummy

Hello. I'm thinking along the lines of training someone to become a skilled fighter who then goes around bullying people and beating folks up in bar fights, or becoming a leg-breaker for a loanshark, that sort of thing.

[Doc Stier]

Heh, heh. I've nothing against money. Only against using the promise of "secrets" to make the money. I believe that if a student is paying their dues and doing the work, and has shown themselves to be a decent person who won't abuse what they've learned, they should be taught everything which the teacher can teach them.

Hi cerebus,

What would constitute "abuse [of] what they've learned", in your opinion?

Hello. I'm thinking along the lines of training someone to become a skilled fighter who then goes around bullying people and beating folks up in bar fights, or becoming a leg-breaker for a loanshark, that sort of thing.

When I began my training in 1961, all of the old time teachers made it quite clear to their students that they gave you your gung-fu, and they could take it away from you as well, if need be. In other words, simply stated, if you decide to use your gung-fu for "bullying people and beating folks up in bar fights, or becoming a leg-breaker for a loanshark", or as a hitman for the Mob, and so forth, the Sifu wouldn't hesitate to come by unexpectedly to break your frickin' legs, or to terminate your life in a garbage dumpster somewhere. And that wasn't an idle threat, it was a serious promise!

Fortunately, most teachers were pretty good judges of a potential new student's personal character, and usually weeded out the probable trouble makers in the initial interview, or shortly thereafter, before they had learned enough to be a threat to anyone.

[johnwang]

the Sifu wouldn't hesitate to come by unexpectedly to break your frickin' legs, or to terminate your life in a garbage dumpster somewhere. And that wasn't an idle threat, it was a serious promise!

In some system, the teacher would send his students to take care of this kind of problems. One of my friends told me that his father sent students to capture one student who ran away from Taiwan and hiden in Hong Kong. When that student was sent back to Taiwan, his father told him, "You may not be able to see me if this happen when I was young. (that guy's body could be dumped into the ocean water on the way back). Some general punishment was to hold a knife and make 6 holes on your own leg (三刀六洞 San Dao Liu Dong - 3 stabs and all stabs has to go through, that's why it's called 3 stabs 6 holes). It was serious business in the ancient time. Today it only exists in movies.

[Ron Panunto]

"Secrets" are an excuse for those who don't want to practice or do the requisite research.

[Doc Stier]

"Secrets" are an excuse for those who don't want to practice or do the requisite research.

Perhaps in some cases, but viewing the traditional CMA's as a whole for nearly 50 years time now, I don't think that's true.

More often than not, in my experience, the so-called secrets are simply the finer points of a particular style's training methods and applications gleaned from the extra-ordinary practice and personal research of a given teacher, usually over a long period of many years time, which he or she doesn't want to casually give to those who aren't willing and able to make similar efforts. I personally feel that legitimate teachers with authentic skills are totally justified in feeling that way.

In the final analysis, a few fakers and frauds may pretend to have knowledge and skills that they don't really possess, and might even succeed in financially duping students with such claims for awhile. But most are eventually exposed when put to the test by someone who doesn't buy their bullshit, finally forcing them to put up or STFU.

Funny thing is that such individuals generally bring this demise on themselves by attempting to bully or intimidate others with their false claims too often and too strongly. As such, ultimately, they order....and they pay!

[C.J.Wang]

When I began my training in 1961, all of the old time teachers made it quite clear to their students that they gave you your gung-fu, and they could take it away from you as well, if need be. In other words, simply stated, if you decide to use your gung-fu for "bullying people and beating folks up in bar fights, or becoming a leg-breaker for a loanshark", or as a hitman for the Mob, and so forth, the Sifu wouldn't hesitate to come by unexpectedly to break your frickin' legs, or to terminate your life in a garbage dumpster somewhere. And that wasn't an idle threat, it was a serious promise!

I've also heard teachers who would "take gung-fu away" from deviant students, but it doesn't invovle harming the students physically. What they would do is to either withhold information or give misleading instruction that'd cause their gung fu to deteriorate.

[johnwang]

One time a SC brother of mine asked me why his Chinese herbal wine (my teacher's secret formula) always tasted bitter. After comparing every ingredents in that formula one by one, we found out there was nothing missing there. I then found out that one of the ingredent 杜仲 (Du Zhong) - eucommia that he did not warm it up with water and salt before adding it in. Afte my friend did that, his herbal wine no longer taste bitter. That's "secret" IMO. If you don't know, you just don't know. No Google can help you to find out that kind of information.

teachers who would "take gung-fu away" from deviant students,

It can also be done by destroying that student's self-confidence.

[somatai]

When I began my training in 1961, all of the old time teachers made it quite clear to their students that they gave you your gung-fu, and they could take it away from you as well, if need be. In other words, simply stated, if you decide to use your gung-fu for "bullying people and beating folks up in bar fights, or becoming a leg-breaker for a loanshark", or as a hitman for the Mob, and so forth, the Sifu wouldn't hesitate to come by unexpectedly to break your frickin' legs, or to terminate your life in a garbage dumpster somewhere. And that wasn't an idle threat, it was a serious promise!

I've also heard teachers who would "take gung-fu away" from deviant students, but it doesn't invovle harming the students physically. What they would do is to either withhold information or give misleading instruction that'd cause their gung fu to deteriorate.

u cant unring a bell

[Doc Stier]

I've also heard teachers who would "take gung-fu away" from deviant students, but it doesn't invovle harming the students physically. What they would do is to either withhold information or give misleading instruction that'd cause their gung fu to deteriorate.

Perhaps if the student's offense was minor. But most often, if crippling physical punishment or death wasn't considered necessary to end a student's abuse of skills, it would simply be a matter of throwing the guy out of the kwoon, knowing that most students won't continue to practice or advance without continuing instruction and refinement from the Sifu.

As a result, the student's skills gradually erode from lack of sufficient training on their own. They will eventually forget most of what they were previously taught, and lose most of the skills that they previously developed. Their gung-fu essentially disappears in this way before too long in most cases. I have personally seen this happen even to guys who had progressed far enough over several years time to earn a Black Belt or a teaching certificate in their style, so certainly those with less learning and training experience are sure to fall by the wayside, IMO.

[jjy5016]

In my experience secrets were there to keep the most important aspects of a system from stupid students who would go out and show them in public to show off in front of others. Many of the different systems' secrets seem to be the same thing only named differently. The long pole, how to use the spine, the legs. There are quite a few.

A certain grandmaster I visited a couple of months ago told me that he has books that were handed down to him but doesn't have any students worthy of them. He told me that he was planning on burning the books before he dies and taking the knowlege with him. I think it's kind of fucked up but I'm not going to tell him so. He's still pretty scary.