Does sweep exist in all CMA styles?

[johnwang]

Let's trying to improve our combat skill instead of discussing whether someone should deserve more respect or not.

The "sweep" exist in the SC (basic SC form 5), LF (Mai Fu Chuan #1 and #2), PM (Luan Jie form) but I'm not sure it exists in all the other systems. For example, I'm 100% sure that it does not exist in all 3 WC forms. Lately I have noticed that even a simple "sweep" will require some very important "principles" to support it. Principles such as a successful sweep will need:

- single leg balance.
- upper body and lower body move into opposit directions.
- correct angle to execute.
- correct contact points.
- special training to develop the sweeping power.
- special training to develop the ability to be able to escape out of a sweep.
- ...

It's also an excellent move as initial set up. Sound like a concret discussion subject (nothing abstract here). so my question is "If sweep is very important basic combat skill then why it's not used by many CMA system (exist in their forms)?"

I have also noticed that when I do the sweep solo drill, my body feel wonderful that I don't get this kind of feeling from other drills training. Have any of your guys feet the same way as I do?

[Teazer]

For example, I'm 100% sure that it does not exist in all 3 WC forms.

It's certainly not emphasized in the forms as much as for other styles, though certain bits of chum kiu can be interpreted that way. I would imagine since most implementations of sweeps involve crossing the center line at some point.
Depending on the lineage, sometimes sweeps show up more clearly in the wooden dummy form, sometimes in separate chi gerk drills.

[johnwang]

sometimes sweeps show up more clearly in the wooden dummy form, sometimes in separate chi gerk drills.

That's why I only said "3 WC forms". The wooden dummy can be treated as drills and drills sometime may come from "cross training". For example, my

- spin back kick drill came from TKD,
- flying knee drill came from MT, and
- 69 drill came from BJJ.

None of those moves exist in my forms (The flying side kick does exist in my monkey staff form).

[Joe L.]

The wooden dummy can be treated as drills and drills sometime may come from "cross training". For example, my

- 69 drill came from BJJ.

.

??

I guess it would depend on what kind of sweep it is, but in regards to feeling great from doing them, my legs and energy level felt livened up after doing left and right simple sweeping drills from northern shaolin. I'm not sure how to name them, but a simple description is:

-Step out forward at a 45 degree foot placement, knee bent
-Move weight forward onto the front leg and kick the ground in front of you with your heel (more or less scraping)
-In one movement, go from the kick into the 'golden rooster' stance. Then repeat on the other side, etc.

Even when I was just doing it very slow to build balance and control, or fast and with full force, it always was a good feeling going on. It might not count as a sweep you are talking about, but it was an easy enough move to apply and would always ''sweep'' away someones leg and hopefully lead to dumping them on the ground without being too tied up.

Do you have a video clip of the specific sweep you are speaking of, or this is more just about the sweeping motion of some moves in general?

[edededed]

Hmm - not sure, I have seen sweeps in Shaolin (big sweeps), baguazhang (little sweeps - I think there are big sweeps, too), but not xingyiquan so far.

[johnwang]

it always was a good feeling going on.

I'm glad that it's not just my imagination and you feel the same way too. The single leg standing is such a great feeling, it's just hard to describe it.

Do you have a video clip of the specific sweep you are speaking of?

http://johnswang.com/Matching_Kick.wmv

but not xingyiquan so far.

How about Taiji? Someone said that Taiji has it but I haven't seen it so far (may be it's hidden).

[Ian]

- spin back kick drill came from TKD,
- flying knee drill came from MT, and
- 69 drill came from BJJ.

It's certainly not emphasized in the forms as much as for other styles, though certain bits of chum kiu can be interpreted that way.

lol

Everything can be interpreted as anything in CMA

Rather than discuss whether sweeps exist in chum kiu or not (I don't think they do, but whatever), IMO IF you feel sweeps are important, then you should train them overtly.

Overt training is better than secret interpretation

[Felipe Bidó]

You can find sweeps in the Tan Tui forms in Che Style Xingyiquan. But these forms were adapted from Shaolin.

[bailewen]

Ton's of them in the Yang 103 but that is a combined form so they can't necessarily be claimed as "taiji". Could be bagua imports.

I'm actually kind of stumped for the moment on a sweep in Baji. Plenty of things where you take out the legs and toss them on the ground but just not a good old fasioned sweep like we are talking about here.

[Joe L.]

it always was a good feeling going on.

I'm glad that it's not just my imagination and you feel the same way too. The single leg standing is such a great feeling, it's just hard to describe it.

Do you have a video clip of the specific sweep you are speaking of?

http://johnswang.com/Matching_Kick.wmv

It's funny, that is actually the exact type of sweep I meant. You have to enjoy the way it pulls their body forward/off balance while you still feel fairly rooted.

What might be something you would add to this sweep? I have played around with a few different strikes done at or close to the moment the sweep connects, but I'd be interested to hear what you might do (or if you'd just do the sweep by itself then move in with something else).

One move that flows well with it is a reverse like punch with a downward angle, so your leg is going in an arc up while your top half is folding/twisting down.

[johnwang]

The timing for this sweep is important. If you sweep when your opponent just lands his front foot, you can make him feel like he just steps on a banana split (it's called foot landing sweep). If you pull his shoulder back and sweep hum at the same time. it's called shoulder pulling sweep. If your opponent tries to escape your sweep, you can glue your foot behind his ankle, the higher his leg raises, the higher that you follow, until he can't raise his leg any higher, you then pull his shoulder back and throw him (it's called sticky sweep).

Since most of the time your opponent will be able to escape out of your sweep (if he trains leg escape), you can spin that leg back and use the other leg to apply a head lock leg block.

You can also just use sweep as entering move. Your intend is not trying to sweep your opponent down but to force him to take weight off that leading leg.

[nianfong]

while not explicitly in standard hebei xingyi (that I've learned) a sweep by the back leg is hidden in every follow step.

[edededed]

Hmm - come to think of it, I have learned something like that in xingyi (sort of explicitly) - maybe it's a sweep...

[johnwang]

What do you mean "maybe"? Sweep is such an obvious move that your upper body and lower body spin into opposite directions. You then end up with standing on one leg. It's hard to mix this move with other moves IMO.

[C.J.Wang]

Not every style of CMA does sweeps with big, exaggerated motions like in SC. In northern mantis, for example, the sweeps are usually kept low and without lifting the sweeping leg up high.

In some of the southern styles I've been exposed to, the sweeping techniques -- called "iron broom legs" -- are also done low, sometimes even with feet touching the ground and gliding.