Finally back/ training for bar security

[hopgarsansau]

So... I didn't have my computer for a while and then I lost track of the URL change for this site...and thought it was shut down. Until my friend finally friend led me to this site again I thought my world was over... anyways.

Don't know if you guys know but I've been working in the bar/nightclub security industry for a while now (on and off for about 2- 2.5 years, working consistently in one bar in the nightclub district of Austin for a year now). Over this year I have more or less become the right hand man of the head of security and run the door staff whenever he's not there. Not saying much, but as I had brought my roommate onto the staff (no combat training, I just needed an extra guy) I decided to train him.

In terms of "tossing people out" I have come to favor using the "full nelson" maneuver, and whatever sort of control, lock maneuver that presents itself at the time (trying to avoid legal suits by "hitting" the individual"). my roommate has watched me operate in the bar, and from what I have taught him decided he liked using the full nelson as well. Therefore I came up with this training for him:

Either I or my friend (yin ba gua/ natural boxing) put on a pair of boxing gloves and come at him (either take down, or flurry of swings) while my roommate dodges, deflects (trying to avoid striking on his part) and lock us up with the full nelson within a ten second time span.

What do you guys think? is it too one-dimensional? should i bring other factors into play? maybe teach him a few other locks that present itself at the time? (I'm afraid he'll get confused)

[Michael Dasargo]

Hey Hop Gar,

I spent 5 years in the nightclub security industry 3 of which I was field training officer. I am currently in the Executive Protection detail.

Here in Cali, we have very strict laws. That being said, we learned to do what we need to do within reason of the law.

Push Hands, to me, is the most valuable training method for this type of "no-strike" scenario. I'm smaller than most people (muscle wise), so I found myself "unbalancing" the patron out of the club via modified standing rear naked choke, or various pain compliance techniques.

Start with push hands on a combative partner, and aim to achieve unbalance and control (whether full nelson, neck hook, or pain compliance joint manipulation). Once control has been achieved, try to walk in the controlled position for several yards...your partner should not have there shoulders over their hips or they will turn and hit you.

If you want to get all the contracts in town, then incident stats need to be reduced. What we did was offer VIP tickets for the patron to come back the following week.

Ultimately, nightclub security is a team art. Without a uniformed response, ish will hit the fan...physically and legally.

Hope it helps,
M.Dasargo

PS
full nelsons don't work to well when the guy is massive. You can get the same effect with "monkey sits on temple": right arm neck hook, left hand pushes hip, left foot pushes behind the knee.

[hopgarsansau]

I have used the rear naked choke on a 300 pounder in the night club (i am 145 at most) and literally dragged him out of the bar... however I am strong for my size so it might not work as well for everybody. I also would use "face lock" that I learned from master john wang. any time you go up against someone larger however, more rules get thrown out the window. thanks for the reply.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

come alongs with a belt grab are quicker to put on than a full nelson.

your best weapon is your voice and your ability to reason.
drunks are easily confused. lol

I worked in a couple of shitholes that had trouble almost everynight.

work in teams, watch for weapons, contain the problem quickly by surrounding it.

if you work alone, quit, your boss is a fuckcake.

[Chris McKinley]

I will echo the idea that a complete full nelson is much harder to achieve than certain other holds. The sleeper is good, but here's a tip...get it in place, but don't start applying pressure, especially if you happen to catch a little pressure on his trachea, or your boy will freak out and start writhing like a SOB. Keep the hold in place, sans pressure, until a) he complies and you escort him out, or b) you need to drop him on the spot. There is no half-assing it with chokes of any kind. People get primally desperate when fighting off unconsciousness or loss of air, and their flailing can seriously hurt or kill someone.

As far as security goes, I wouldn't work door with any less than three total personnel, including myself. Two is far better than one, but three represents a strategic and tactical threshold which now allows one man to provide 'overlook' on the situation, watching for weapon draws and unseen sympathizers. He can also play free safety with things like opening doors, notifying management, calling police or providing first-aid.

[chud]

You need to watch Road House.

[hopgarsansau]

We have about 4-5 door guys on our staff at any given time. the minimum would be 3 actively working (we are kinda short on guys right now). since two are usually guarding the entrance and exit, the one on floor duty usually does a lot of the dirty work, usually the exit guy will come up to help (i did so on quite a few occasions). it all really depends on the layout of the bar. thanks for the replies!

[dragontigerpalm]

The last thing I want when I'm extricating a guy from the club is to be married to him - so I don't use chokes (wouldn't anyway except in the most extreme situation), full nelsons, bear hugs etc. I don't want my mobility impaired or my vision obstructed in case his friend(s) or enemy(s) decide to join the party. I need to be able to shove this guy out of the way and respond immediately to any other threat. This comes from years of bouncing by myself though I operate the same way with a crew. Two handed close contact holds are very cumbersome and awkward when trying to navigate through a crowded bar. Innocent bystanders get bumped into or knocked down, drinks get spilled, tables get overturned - it's just too disruptive. Plus if the guy you're taking out goes dead weight on you then you are going down with him. I generally stay at a 45 degree angle to the side and back and the degree of physical contact if any is determined by the guy's demeanor. It can ramp up from no contact (though I generally keep one hand on him) to a grab from light to hard, to off balancing with momentum, or to pain compliance. Regardless, I can engage or disengage easily as the situation warrants.

[yusuf]

hey

my friend use to do a take down and then drag people out by the foot. If the guy got up he would still pull a hopping trouble mker out of the door. Then, as I understand it, tey would call the police.

yusuf

[Ba-men]

The last thing I want when I'm extricating a guy from the club is to be married to him - so I don't use chokes (wouldn't anyway except in the most extreme situation), full nelsons, bear hugs etc. I don't want my mobility impaired or my vision obstructed in case his friend(s) or enemy(s) decide to join the party. I need to be able to shove this guy out of the way and respond immediately to any other threat. This comes from years of bouncing by myself though I operate the same way with a crew. Two handed close contact holds are very cumbersome and awkward when trying to navigate through a crowded bar. Innocent bystanders get bumped into or knocked down, drinks get spilled, tables get overturned - it's just too disruptive. Plus if the guy you're taking out goes dead weight on you then you are going down with him. I generally stay at a 45 degree angle to the side and back and the degree of physical contact if any is determined by the guy's demeanor. It can ramp up from no contact (though I generally keep one hand on him) to a grab from light to hard, to off balancing with momentum, or to pain compliance. Regardless, I can engage or disengage easily as the situation warrants.

Good post... and sound advice.

Years ago I bounced in a very nasty bar in a bad part of town on a highway called "Snort Highway". ( bikers, death metal and drugs....NOT cool!!! ) I can think of a thousand ways to make a better living. Bouncing isn't a cool or a macho job. I quit when my partner ejected a F%#K Nut, only to have him come back and pumped three 9mm into his chest and two in the owners back. My bud in turn put a few lugs into the A hole as the T bag tried to bolt. My partner went from 300lbs down to 180lb in the hospital. The Doc said because he was so heavy...his bulk saved his life. Neither I or him have ever bounced again.

Never ever...get into a situation where your movement is handicapped! I used my eyes, common sense and smart very visual and very verbal communication to neutralize most situations. For the most part drunks were easy...duh their drunk. (unless they were a man mountain) Anyone who has bounced knows its the F%#K who is sober (or semi sober) who is the bitch to deal with.

I never encountered a cop who questioned our use of force. .... The prosecuting attorney never even came close to charging my buddy for his role in the shooting. Once when I just started a F*%K" head jumped over the bar and attempted to get into it with the bar tender (The dude was an old fart... and in the middle of the day...WTF???) so I round kicked him to get his attention and it snapped his femur ....Cops didn't say shit. The old fart tried to take the owner to court. It was thrown out.

Bouncing ... Get a different job. It will... in most cases pay better too.

[Felipe Bidó]

I don't like a full nelson, like the ones everybody does when training apps against holds. I like to apply pressure to the neck at the right side of the 'full nelson', while pressing with my shoulder and forearm to the left side (would that be called a 'backwards half triangle"?) while pushing with my hips to keep the guy from gaining any significant balance. I also keep shifting my weight around, for the same purpose (preventing any balance point).

Anyways, if the guy's hips are out of balance, it's all good.

[tiltpoint]

Felipe- In wrestling its called a power nelson, mainly used for turning an opponent. Arm around the front is a three-quarters nelson. Both allow much more freedom than a full nelson, and the quicker release leaves a free hand for any unforeseen complications.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

You need to watch Road House.

lol... yes, you need to escalate immediately and start smashing heads into tables and blind backfisting guys in the face as they come up behind you with pool cues.

and always, kick them in the knees! then shoot them or run them down with your hidden mercedes!

[Chris McKinley]

Doormen have similar training needs to cops in that they are required to attempt to escort the offending patron(s) out of the establishment while doing the minimal necessary harm. This is qualitatively different than the needs of either the average civilian patron of that club or the soldier having a drink at the bar. In several respects, it makes the doorman's job harder in terms of complexity than either of the latter two.

[dragontigerpalm]

Doormen have similar training needs to cops in that they are required to attempt to escort the offending patron(s) out of the establishment while doing the minimal necessary harm. This is qualitatively different than the needs of either the average civilian patron of that club or the soldier having a drink at the bar. In several respects, it makes the doorman's job harder in terms of complexity than either of the latter two.

That's very true though one thing that many bouncers don't realize (young ones) or lose sight of is that a bouncer/security guard has no more legal standing to lay hands on someone than any other civilian.