When does a martial art become a cult?

[Michael]

Russian renaissance fair and square-dancing revival meeting?

[Chris McKinley]

CMA seem by observation to be predilected culturally toward developing cults of personality. Heavily skewed cultural emphasis on the collective rather than the individual, combined with a dimensional axis that defers by default to older generations, ironically tends to produce more cults of personality, not fewer. As the 'flower fist, brocade leg' years of Shaolin's history show, this can also tend to produce inbreeding and a reduction in the robustness of a given combat approach over time if care is not taken to avoid xenophobia and excess clandestine tendencies of the culture.

In the plus column, such a culture also tends to provide superior stability and integrity of the material content over large periods of time. Unfortunately, an additional cultural factor tends to mitigate even that advantage....namely, the practice of allowing a given art to die with a particular practitioner if that practitioner doesn't deem any of his individual students worthy to take on the mantle of the entire art. Oh well....at least we know that crazy knows no borders.

[dtactics]

I hope someday to find such a master. So I can punch him in the face.

+1

I can't stand how these charlatans prey on obviously sincere but misguided students. The idiot in the red jumping around is a disgrace to all ukes. His exaggerated craving to showcase his master's divine" work is nauseating at best and suffocatingly embarrassing at worst.

Even stuff that MR. does at his seminars rails on me as they're clearly designed to promote conversion into R.O.C. I just wished these idiots would keep their personal stupidities out of some clearly beneficial training. I guess it's the oldest trick in the cult 101 book, feed em a little sweets and liberally sprinkle in a whole lot of garbage. They'll end up swallowing everything without noticing.

[RobP2]

Careful, your agenda is showing

[dtactics]

Like I said, some people just swallow everything

[grady]

CMA seem by observation to be predilected culturally toward developing cults of personality.

Quoted for truth.

[fuga]

CMA seem by observation to be predilected culturally toward developing cults of personality. Heavily skewed cultural emphasis on the collective rather than the individual, combined with a dimensional axis that defers by default to older generations, ironically tends to produce more cults of personality, not fewer. As the 'flower fist, brocade leg' years of Shaolin's history show, this can also tend to produce inbreeding and a reduction in the robustness of a given combat approach over time if care is not taken to avoid xenophobia and excess clandestine tendencies of the culture.

In the plus column, such a culture also tends to provide superior stability and integrity of the material content over large periods of time. Unfortunately, an additional cultural factor tends to mitigate even that advantage....namely, the practice of allowing a given art to die with a particular practitioner if that practitioner doesn't deem any of his individual students worthy to take on the mantle of the entire art. Oh well....at least we know that crazy knows no borders.

See the CMC thread for your words in action.

[RobP2]

Like I said, some people just swallow everything

And some people don't, and other people just troll

[JoseFreitas]

"Rely not on the teacher, but on the teaching.

Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words.

Rely not on theory, but on experience.

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for
many generations.

Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.

Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious
books.

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers
and elders.

But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees
with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and
all, then accept it and live up to it.

Kalama Sutra (a sermon from the Buddha)"

[WujiRob]

JoseFreitas: Nice!

I guess the problem (if one chooses to define it as such) is that at least some form of "blind" trust in the teacher is required in order to reach some sort of goal/skill (from a Buddhist point of view, the apparent existence of that desire may be exactly the point). That is, if (and sometimes that's a big if) you believe your chosen teacher has some desireable skill, you'll just have to trust that following his teachings will instill that skill in you. The more "esotheric"/"magical" the skill, the more likely is the teaching method to be "unorthodox".

I guess it's just a matter how willing you are to deceive yourself (on the other hand: I do have some respect for people who are willingly and knowingly engaging in embarrasing behavior in "public"; it must at least do some good to the ego to knowinlgy cross the boundaries of insane behavior )

[JoseFreitas]

Note that the Buddha did not say you cannot follow a teacher, or have faith in him, or even to follow an "unorthodox" teacher. Just don't follow him because he is unorthodox, verify that his actions are congruendt with his teachings, keep on believeing that ultimately, it's about the teachings, not the teacher. It's OK to follow a teacher, after all he is "one who went first" in the esoteric stuff. But verify what he teaches accoording to your experience, and "do as he says, not as he does".

I guess. But people are people, and in the end we are all some sort of conditioned robots and have likes and dislikes we don't understand, yaddayadda, which pretty much guarantees we're gonna screw up a few times. That's OK. Learn with the experiences.

I disagree with the "blind" trust that you imply. It doesn't have to be blind. It requires "trust" but accomodates evaluation and examination.

[dtactics]

"Rely not on the teacher, but on the teaching.

Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words.

Rely not on theory, but on experience.

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for
many generations.

Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.

Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious
books.

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers
and elders.

But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees
with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and
all, then accept it and live up to it.

Kalama Sutra (a sermon from the Buddha)"

Nice!

Like a former US president said, "Trust but Verify".

It's a serious issue b/c I can't tell you of how many students I know who've blamed their Senseis/Sifus for their useless skills. I always ask them, "Didn't you know you were deviating from the goals you'd set upon first entering the school? Did it really take 15 years later?" Of course they did, but the teacher and the art becomes the scapegoat. Though I dislike teachers who prey upon the weak and impressionable, I also realize it takes two to tango, there's no abuser without an enabler.

I've trained under "sifus" who'd cast wonderful physiological, physical, bio-mechanical nuggets around but would require you to respond in XYZ fashion for their nuggets to shine. It wasn't until meeting VV, MR that I understood real martial arts doesn't require anyone's advanced knowledge or coded response.