Running with a Heavy Pack

[gryphonz]

i think it fucked up my posture. weights in webbing or weighted vest might be a better idea.

[Ian]

Yer all fergettin' that Ian runs triatholons just for fun.

He is probably the most fit person on this entire board.

Now I wouldn't go that far. There are plenty of very fit people on this board.

I don't know why I got involved in a thread on healthy training methods started by someone who thought Russian Fight Club was a fan-freakin-tastic idea.

Wow you really don't like me huh?

I'm still genuinely interested in your POV if you'd care to elaborate.

[Jeice]

Yer all fergettin' that Ian runs triatholons just for fun.

He is probably the most fit person on this entire board.

Now I wouldn't go that far. There are plenty of very fit people on this board.

I don't know why I got involved in a thread on healthy training methods started by someone who thought Russian Fight Club was a fan-freakin-tastic idea.

Wow you really don't like me huh?

I'm still genuinely interested in your POV if you'd care to elaborate.

Well Ian, what have you done for me lately?

First things first.
There will always be a "your mileage may vary" clause when it comes to health, just ask the 110 year old change smoking woman. There isn't and will never be a statistically valid study showing chain smoking being a strong contributor to longevity, but hey, the crusty bitch pulled it off so good for her. Same goes for this.

I specify impact as being the concern over load due to a personal bias towards concern over osteoarthritis. Load bearing injury under this exercise will likely be a comparitively rapid and obvious onset (anything from immediate to weeks) in muscle and ligament strain as a result of soft tissue rupture or gradual breakdown. The injuries incurred from this can be severe, but aside from complete tears typically repair themselves given time. Alignment can help prevent this, as can gradual acclimation to increasing load.
I chose impact as the primary health concern for this due to the rather shadowy nature of cartilage injury and degradation, and the permanent and progressive nature of osteoarthritis. What I see running with a pack as is just a way of exacerbating the damage you can do under normal conditions to chondral cartilage and subchondral bone surfaces. These injuries typically won't slow you down when they happen and you might not even notice them, but they are cumulative and can initiate the "eventual" onset of OA. It's awkward to put this as my primary concern, because the time taken from stimulus to expression has been observed to take years, but as martial artists and people who intend to train until the day they buck the kicket, I figure that's a concern. It is for me anyway. Proper gait can minimise this, as can terrain and proper footwear, but in my opinion your risk is still much much higher than I would feel comfortable with.
I can completely agree with weighted hiking or even jogging uphill as a method of developing lower limb and core stability. The thought of running downhill with a weighted pack makes me cringe. I'm not sure if those two need to be explained, but its a matter of F/T at heelstrike, when travelling uphill your knee position at heelstrike is more appropriate to absorb impact (force absorbed through supporting musculature), and your body mass will be transferred through the joint more slowly; downhill is the opposite, your F at heelstrike is very large as you are decellerating your entire mass with a near fully extended knee (placing the bulk of the shock absorbing strain on the cartilage).
Think that about covers it.

I think it's one of those exercises you shouldn't recommend to others. If it works for you, great, you accept that risk. But it might come back to haunt you later.

[Ian]

Well Ian, what have you done for me lately?

Sometimes personalities clash online. I have absolutely no problems with you and I hope we can keep it that way

Thanks for typing all that up. I'll give it a think over.

I think it's one of those exercises you shouldn't recommend to others. If it works for you, great, you accept that risk. But it might come back to haunt you later.

Precisely why I'm not selling the idea in this thread, and I hope people can see that.

Who comes to ME for advice anyway? I want them immediately dragged outside and flogged

[RobP2]

I can't add anything scientific except an observation that my knees hurt far far less from running than they did from doing taiji

[Jeice]

One other addendum to what I was writing RE: load over time. Being under high load for a long period of time can compress the sinovial fluid out of the cartilage and lead to subchrondral damage also. People complaining of interjoint pain after slow exercises like taiji may be suffering from this. There are harmful ways to do almost everything sadly, knees are tricky that way.

[D_Glenn]

So many people with knee problems. Maybe take a look at your own health and diet, you might be what is kind of considered a 'yin' deficiency or lack of the essential fluids in the body. Chinese herbs are good as well as eating 'yin' type foods such as yams which are a natural source of 'Hyaluronan', as well as the sticky, slow effect they have on the digestion to aid in absorbtion of other key fluid building components.

.

[Chris McKinley]

Ian,

I'm glad you've found an activity that brings you so much joy. If you're going to post while drunk, I'm gonna have to take your accusations that I'm not reading your posts with a grain of salt. I'm not really interested in arguing this issue; for me, it's not really that controversial or debatable. In my ignorance, I will mistakenly hope that you do not suffer any injuries from running with your heavy pack. Cheers.

[Areios]

So many people with knee problems. Maybe take a look at your own health and diet, you might be what is kind of considered a 'yin' deficiency or lack of the essential fluids in the body. Chinese herbs are good as well as eating 'yin' type foods such as yams which are a natural source of 'Hyaluronan', as well as the sticky, slow effect they have on the digestion to aid in absorbtion of other key fluid building components.

.

could you write more about yin/yang foods please? It sounds very interesting.
Maybe it will improve my legs.

[RobP2]

So many people with knee problems. Maybe take a look at your own health and diet, you might be what is kind of considered a 'yin' deficiency or lack of the essential fluids in the body. Chinese herbs are good as well as eating 'yin' type foods such as yams which are a natural source of 'Hyaluronan', as well as the sticky, slow effect they have on the digestion to aid in absorbtion of other key fluid building components.

.

Nope, I just stopped doing taiji - no more knee problems!

[JessOBrien]

I can't add anything scientific except an observation that my knees hurt far far less from running than they did from doing taiji

Interesting, I had the exact opposite experience. My work on Tai Chi has been a great boon to my knees. But it did take some tweaking and adjusting. Jogging was fuckin me up in many ways, although I enjoy it greatly.

-Jess O

[Ian]

I'm not really interested in arguing this issue

Fair enough. Water under the bridge, my friend. And thanks for your concern

[dtactics]

Nope, I just stopped doing taiji - no more knee problems!

Careful, your agenda is showing.

May interest you to know that VV recommends doing very, very slow work with breath when dealing with chronic injuries. Yes, Taiji-ish movements over ballistic ones like... hmmm... running. Ask him about it.

Running's about the most foolish thing to do with knee problems. Take up cycling or get someone to tweak your Taiji instead of blaming it for your ills

[wiesiek]

...'Running's about the most foolish thing to do with knee problems..."

only if yo play on concret/asphalt
and not always
my G.F. did a lot of running even with dressing on her knee as an part of healing .
In fact running and masages was her only medicine.

i had knee problem once when i had have year or so of breake in my trainings /sic!/
Med.Doc. didin`t find nothing
but told me that i have "overgrovn"?? knees joits
it was like 25 years ago before i even started "internal"

Rob2 -
something was wrong wit you TJ approch, or not quite competent teacher?
TJ is famous from its healing propertys
so double check what do you learn and who is teaching

[RobP2]

Careful, your agenda is showing.

May interest you to know that VV recommends doing very, very slow work with breath when dealing with chronic injuries. Yes, Taiji-ish movements over ballistic ones like... hmmm... running. Ask him about it.

Running's about the most foolish thing to do with knee problems. Take up cycling or get someone to tweak your Taiji instead of blaming it for your ills

Lol, I've spoken to Vladimir many times about this so am quite aware of that thanks - but he doesn't advocate working in extremely low stances for form work, which I think is where my trouble stemmed from.

It's hardly news in the taiji world - there's been talk of CXW having knee trouble for years, and Ip Tai Tak was another AFAIK. In fact I heard John Ding wouldn't do Ip's snake form precisely because of this