Weapons Training

[mrtoes]

mrtoes referenced a Krav Maga instructor who stated, "if you are in a fight and you have a knife, you will use it before you know what you're doing", a statement with which I must respectfully disagree. He himself might, but I and many others do not.

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply. I should probably clarify by saying that he was addressing a seminar of (mostly untrained) members of the public, not people who might have serious weapon training, and was probably concerned about sending people away who are slightly less, rather than more, likely to get themselves in trouble whether it be with the law or in hospital. I accept that with proper training it should be possible to advance past this. I however am definitely in the "untrained member of the public" category with regards to blades!

Matthew

[Budo Warrior]

I think middleway is all over the issue. For me, in civilian situtations, distance is typically closed and you are in a situation where you cannot gain space/time to deploy your weapon. Most folks do not possess the necessary skill to regain, obtain the necessary space, balance, and timing to begin to employ their weapon. Therefore, I think it is important to spend more time on empty hand with a partiuclar focus on the clinch, and all ground fighting positions. Not with the intent to enter the UFC or win a BJJ contest, but to learn how to maintain your integrity and regain space/ability to employ your weapon.

I think all the escrima training, kali, knife, asp, and tactical folder training is good and relevant, but typically those things are practiced at ideal ranges of fighting for those weapons and are trained with "parity" between the individuals.

It is important I believe to do scenario based training from time to time replicating the conditions and assumptions in which you will use your weapons and then look at the gaps in your training. for me, it has been developing a good empty hand base and structure, then integrating the weapons into that process.

[Chris McKinley]

Kevin,

RE: "I think all the escrima training, kali, knife, asp, and tactical folder training is good and relevant, but typically those things are practiced at ideal ranges of fighting for those weapons and are trained with "parity" between the individuals.". Agreed, and that's a big problem with a lot of FMA schools in terms of their material being used as real self-defense. Hock Hochheim calls it "the myth of the duel" in FMA, whereby almost all the training assumes that both combatants will be armed with blades (or sticks), both will be equally aware of the hostilities, and that both will have adequate opportunity to present their weapons and will have done so at precisely the same moment in time. And like almost every martial arts school regardless of style, it also ignores the concept of environmental weapons and obstacles, strategic orientation, egress and cover, and the presence of protective charges and bystanders.

I have also been a strong advocate of scenario based training. In fact, I think we've done some recent threads which cover that precise topic in quite a bit of detailed discussion. 3 Second Kill and Mass Attacks, Forgetting Forms, making training natural, Spontaneous Response and Natural Movement Patterns, and why do they deviate from the postures when sparring? are all threads where this kind of thing has popped up to varying degrees of detail.

On Rum Soaked Fist, the few of us who are constantly preaching reality in training are generally referred to as "dinosaurs". Hopefully not due to our age. Either way, welcome to the club!

[Bhassler]

On Rum Soaked Fist, the few of us who are constantly preaching reality in training are generally referred to as "dinosaurs". Hopefully not due to our age. Either way, welcome to the club!

FYI,it is EXCLUSIVELY because of your age. Just sayin'.

[Ian]

Apologies to all in advance as I'm severely hung over.

Disagree to both. Here's why:

1) Not every combative situation is going to warrant a lethal response, and I'm not sure I buy into the logic that all non-life threatening situations are avoidable. Varying degrees of force and all that.

Not all weapons are used for lethal response. Not sure where you got that second bit from.

Some examples of legal, non-lethal weapons:

2) Empty hand ability is the basis for all other work.

I don't think that's true. If someone gets into an 'empty hand fight' with no training, he'll most likely be ok. If he gets into a 'weapons fight' with no training, chances of survival are slim. Or, an empty hand adept may not fare too well in a weapons class, whereas a weapons adept won't fare too poorly in an empty hand class.

Besides, historically in warrior cultures, empty hand ability almost always took a backseat to weapons ability. Look at aikido for example. Clearly comes from weapons work.

Even if you're highly skilled with a weapon, there's always the odd chance of dropping it. I remember seeing a video not too long ago with GM Max Pallen of Senkotiros Arnis in a full-contact stickfighting match, and during the course of the action he dropped his stick no less than three times (luckily he knew how to recover). If you can't function without it you're fucked.

Good points regarding retention.

Also why I wrote "Empty hand ability is for when you can't use your weapons (for whatever reason)."

That's why I try to spend an equal amount of time on both.

Also a good plan

the question i think that is the most important is ...

If the shit hits the fan and your on the receiving end of IMMEDIATE and BRUTAL violence ... will you have time to recognise the threat and bring your weapon to bare on the situation prior to being KTFO or Stabbed?

I hear and see alot of stuff about carrying knives, grabbing your car keys, having little trick spikes, re-enforced high grade steel stuff and this and that .... but you would have to train your arse off for along time to be anywhere near quick enough to bring any of that stuff to bear when the shit really kicks off. Certainly in the situations i have found myself in, if i had been hand in pocket grabbing my knife or trying to grab my car keys ... even if i was quick .... i would have been knocked out or stabbed. Most stuff is over so fast when your really in it ... self preservation and knocking the asshole attacking you out is the top priority and you fall down to the level of your instinctive training.

I worked with doorman who carried coshes, old mobile phones, flexible batons, blades etc etc .... in ALL the situations i was in, all the situations they were in ... they never ONCE deployed any of these things effectively, instead dropping to the level of training in the thing they instinctively knew how to use .... their fists. These were guys who had 'carried' for 20 years. I asked why they still carried if they were never able to use the things they said 'makes me feel safer'. The illusion of safety is sometimes more what carrying a blade or a weapon is about than the actual practicality of it.

Your hands are powerful 'knock out' or 'destroy' weapons that you use every single day of your life in everything you do ... you dont have to think to use them and you dont have to train as much to make them useful.

Just my experience and opinion.

Cheers
Chris

Good points.

One of the many drills we use to train deployment is

-one or more people start hitting you (blindsiding)
-you follow the force and stumble into a run
-while creating distance, deploy your weapon

Do you think that would make a difference? I can see not being able to deploy a weapon if you don't train deployment, but if that IS something you train and it still falls apart in application, then I dunno

My view is that I mostly agree with Chris Middleway about deployment, but also that a weapon carried as such tends to become a psychological cructh "no need to worry ah got mah big gun..." And how many cases will warrant that level of response?

OTOH not wanting to carry a weapon no matter what as it could be a crutch... could also be a crutch

Anyway I don't think we're talking about guns. Certainly in our respective countries, carrying a gun is against the rules.

We're sheep, I know

[Budo Warrior]

Actually I am impressed by Mr Williams tactics and find them very good. I really like his use of the magazine and surefire, probably the single best Idea I have seen in many years. and with my background in Aikido and Close Quarters CombativesI find this fits very, very well with how I tend to do things.

However,

There this a problem, that never gets addressed in this type of training. Mr Williams may have very fine skills, but in all the examples he is able to process the OODA loop fairly quickly before he has really lost much of his integrity. Absolutely great if you can indeed do this. I think though in my experiences the scenarios in his video are still some what ideal and we really should take our training to a deeper point of failure than what his training is addressing here.

Again, no issue with what he is doing, just think that it does not adequately address the whole "behind the power curve"/OODA loop issues that occur in fighting, which is why us TMA guys have issues when we try and work with folks that don't share our same understanding of reality.

[dragontigerpalm]

The use of a rolled up magazine as a weapon is not original to Mr. Williams and predates my childhood. My dad, a WW11 vet, showed this to me when I was a kid.

[Teazer]

and the old 'Millwall brick' folded newspaper of soccer hooligan fame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millwall_brick

[mrtoes]

Apologies to all in advance as I'm severely hung over.
Not all weapons are used for lethal response. Not sure where you got that second bit from.

Some examples of legal, non-lethal weapons: (...)

Thanks for the vid, enjoyed that. I can't wait to get home and try stabbing myself in the leg with a rolled up copy of last weeks Economist

I guess one problem with the magazine/newspaper is that it requires a degree of preparation and I can't see that working on the street.

The torch looks very practical.

One of the many drills we use to train deployment is

-one or more people start hitting you (blindsiding)
-you follow the force and stumble into a run
-while creating distance, deploy your weapon

I'm interested - What weapon you envisage carrying? I take it you're not planning on packing a gun/knife, this being England/Hobbiton?

Matthew

[RobP2]

I guess one problem with the magazine/newspaper is that it requires a degree of preparation and I can't see that working on the street.

It works, believe me it works

[Darth Rock&Roll]

1 brings his fists and 2 brings his sword, 1 gets a spear, 2 gets a bow and arrow, 1 gets a hand gun, 2 gets a sniper rifle, 1 gets a bomb, 2 gets a cruise missile, 1 gets a nuke, 2 gets a nuke, the end.

that's a very general picture of how escalation works.

empty hand can beat knife because of proximity.

empty hand would have more difficulty with a sword and even more difficulty with a spear.

again because of proximity, assuming full knowledge of use of the weapon and skill to use it.

your best weapon is and will always be your mind.

[Ian]

Actually I am impressed by Mr Williams tactics and find them very good. I really like his use of the magazine and surefire, probably the single best Idea I have seen in many years. and with my background in Aikido and Close Quarters CombativesI find this fits very, very well with how I tend to do things.

However,

There this a problem, that never gets addressed in this type of training. Mr Williams may have very fine skills, but in all the examples he is able to process the OODA loop fairly quickly before he has really lost much of his integrity. Absolutely great if you can indeed do this. I think though in my experiences the scenarios in his video are still some what ideal and we really should take our training to a deeper point of failure than what his training is addressing here.

Hi Kevin,

I don't know about James Williams' JMA training, but he's also a systema instructor, and in systema we do work on starting from positions of disadvantage. So maybe he does address this aspect of training. Who knows?

Also keep in mind it's a promo vid and things have to look sexy

Again, no issue with what he is doing, just think that it does not adequately address the whole "behind the power curve"/OODA loop issues that occur in fighting, which is why us TMA guys have issues when we try and work with folks that don't share our same understanding of reality.

Anyway, I'm glad you brought up the OODA loop. It has changed the way I view combat and I agree - more schools would benefit from drilling recovery and starting from behind the power curve.

Just like how Boyd's own 40 second challenge involved starting from a position of disadvantage.

I guess one problem with the magazine/newspaper is that it requires a degree of preparation and I can't see that working on the street.

Hey Matthew,

It's fine if you prepare beforehand.

Whenever I'm on a plane, I check which magazine would work best as an impact weapon. I also always have a high-powered flashlight and a sturdy pen with me. Come on... I can't be the only crazy who does this...

I'm interested - What weapon you envisage carrying? I take it you're not planning on packing a gun/knife, this being England/Hobbiton?

I train a number of different weapons, including improvised. Whether I carry them religiously and whether it's in fact legal to do so in my immediate locale (Hobbiton) is another question. It's a good mental challenge and great for training resourcefulness, aside from the obvious benefit of being able to work with and against weapons, of course.

And just to echo some earlier thoughts in this thread, IMO it's good to be able to turn anything into a weapon, including your own mind and body.

[Chris McKinley]

I've been preaching OODA loops, Hicks's Fairly Stern Guideline, and training from a diminished starting point as per a real surprise assault for a good while. Shooter could almost claim to be the John the Baptist of training from failure. It's good after all this time to see some folks opening up their noggins to some of these ideas and how they affect their own training instead of just mindlessly repeating the status quo for yet another generation.

[Ian]

I've been preaching OODA loops, Hicks's Fairly Stern Guideline, and training from a diminished starting point as per a real surprise assault for a good while. Shooter could almost claim to be the John the Baptist of training from failure. It's good after all this time to see some folks opening up their noggins to some of these ideas and how they affect their own training instead of just mindlessly repeating the status quo for yet another generation.

I've also been trying to sell the OODA loop around ef and rsf but quit because not a lot of folks were interested

I know Bruce has some great material but I could never figure out what he was talking about. Could never get passed the cryptic language

[Andy_S]

RE: Used moby question
Out of curiosity: What is the weapons value of an old mobile phone?
Do you stab the attacker with the aerial? Or threaten to call his Mum and tell on him, perhaps?

RE: Tactical advice re rolled up magazines as improvised weapons
If this is one of your self defense tools, better, I think to carry around a copy of "Fiesta Readers Wives" or "Bouncing Bosom Babes in Bikins," * than "The Economist." If you take this advice, even if you don't have time to roll the thing up and have away a la Errol Flynn, you can flash the literature in your attackers face with the reasonable expectation that he will pause in mid-attack for a second or two while he peruses the striking visual material on the cover.

*Gents, please dont jump to conclusions re my literary tastes. 'Fiesta" I only buy for the articles, and "Bosoms" of course provides fine fodder for budding figure artists (such as myself...I have been meaning to take it up for years).