Control your opponent's striking weapons

[johnwang]

Too many abstract threads lately. I though I'll start a more concrete thread.

If you left hand grabs on your opponent's right wrist, your right hand grabs on your opponent's left wrist, you can temporary take your opponent's striking weapon away. Any of his intention can be sense through your Tinjin. IMO, this is more powerful than just "build an arm bridge" that your oponent can destroy that bridge anytime he wants to. This "control your opponent's striking weapons" concept is not popular in the striking arts but it's a very important concept in both the eastern and western throwing arts.

It's a big difference from the following "bridge build" approach:

"A and B face each other in push hands distance. A puts R hand on B's R wrist and L hand on B's R elbow as B offers the R forearm. B places L hand on A's R elbow. From this starting point, A pushes with L hand on B's R elbow..."

The advantage of the 1st approach is when and how to destroy that bridge is under your control which is not the case in the 2nd approach. It makes common sense that if you have controled your opponent's striking weapons, you are safe at that particular moment. If you take advantage on that small window to move in, your safety will be improved. For example, if your left hand push your opponent's right arm up, your right hand push his left arm down, you can slide in and use your right shoulder to strike at your opponent's chest. Your opponent won't have the 3rd arm to stop your shoulder strike,

How important is this concept in your system?

[everything]

not sure I understand the distinction. if my left hand grabs your right wrist you may be the one still in control if your tinjin and other skills are better. same as in that push hands description. if i have wrist control you can still strike me. if i have good bridges that are pushing or pulling or otherwise controlling your balance, it may be difficult for you to do so. are you talking about a held weapon or your seven stars of your body?

[middleway]

How are the knees, feet and headbutt taken away from this approach.

How can you block or avoid a knee to the balls or a head butt if you have tied up your own hands by grabbing the opponents arms?? You have taken away their ability to strike with their hands or arms .... but your ability to strike with your arms or hands is also gone. You of course can kick their shins, knee their balls or headbutt them as well as they can you, so i wonder what advantage has been created by grabbing?

Interested in your thoughts.

Regards
Chris

[johnwang]

if my left hand grabs your right wrist you may be the one still in control if your tinjin and other skills are better.

Not sure I understand your point. If your right hand control my left wrist, you are in "dominate position". You can "guide" my left arm to wherever that you like and I have no way of knowing that ahead of the time. Of course I can still use my Tinjin but that may just fall into your trap. You just force me to pay more attention on your right hand and not enough attention on your left hand until it's too late. The difference is when you get a hold one me, you can "guide" me but I can't guide you.

How are the knees, feet and headbutt taken away from this approach.

This is the beauty of the Tinjin. If your opponent tries to knee, kick, elbow, or head butt you, you can "shake - quick pull and push" his arms and destroy his intention in the early stage.

[Bhassler]

Why grab both hands? Why not step to your opponent's left and grab (or otherwise block) his left arm with your left arm? That way your right arm is free to do whatever you want. If you just grab your opponent's wrists, he can hit you with his elbows. If you grab his elbows, he can hit with his hands. In both cases he can use your grip as leverage if he's faster than you-- it doesn't matter as much who's holding who as it matters who responds faster once the connection is made.

[bruce]

How important is this concept in your system?

for my own personal practice based on what my teachers and my experience has shown me and my own natural attributes the ideas you expressed are very important. if i can grab you i can feel what you are doing and will have better information to make my own attack. for me it may be easy to grab another person since i am big and strong and have good ability to feel the other persons intentions so they may not be able to grab me as easy.

i think the "bridge" is what allows you to make a grab like that.

[D_Glenn]

If you left hand grabs on your opponent's right wrist, your right hand grabs on your opponent's left wrist, you can temporary take your opponent's striking weapon away.

If you do that you've just 雙重 'double-weighted' yourself, (or a better translation: 'created mutual resistance') hopefully you are larger, stronger, quicker, and smarter than the opponent, but if this is your attack then maybe we can cross out 'smarter'.


Bagua has a guideline: 二十。出手要一不要二，以多胜少要牢记，若能识得其中意，优势常存掌握中

"The outgoing hand must be one, not both, use the few to overcome the many...".



.

[C.J.Wang]

Too many abstract threads lately. I though I'll start a more concrete thread.

If you left hand grabs on your opponent's right wrist, your right hand grabs on your opponent's left wrist, you can temporary take your opponent's striking weapon away. Any of his intention can be sense through your Tinjin. IMO, this is more powerful than just "build an arm bridge" that your oponent can destroy that bridge anytime he wants to. This "control your opponent's striking weapons" concept is not popular in the striking arts but it's a very important concept in both the eastern and western throwing arts.

It's a big difference from the following "bridge build" approach:

"A and B face each other in push hands distance. A puts R hand on B's R wrist and L hand on B's R elbow as B offers the R forearm. B places L hand on A's R elbow. From this starting point, A pushes with L hand on B's R elbow..."

The advantage of the 1st approach is when and how to destroy that bridge is under your control which is not the case in the 2nd approach. It makes common sense that if you have controled your opponent's striking weapons, you are safe at that particular moment. If you take advantage on that small window to move in, your safety will be improved. For example, if your left hand push your opponent's right arm up, your right hand push his left arm down, you can slide in and use your right shoulder to strike at your opponent's chest. Your opponent won't have the 3rd arm to stop your shoulder strike,

How important is this concept in your system?

First of all, the term "bridge" or "bridge hand" is a southern CMA terminology that has only been used in recent years as a generic idea to symbolize connection. So I feel that using "bridge" to describe Taiji PH is unsuitable because the type of practice found in southern systems to develop "bridge hand" and bridging skill is anything but soft and noodling.

As far as grabbing v. bridge building, I prefer the latter because it is simply much more versatile and unpredictable to the opponent.

And consider this: when you use both hands to grab your opponent's both wrists, you think you've got both of his wrists tied up. But the truth is, he has both of your hands tied up too

[johnwang]

when you use both hands to grab your opponent's both wrists, you think you've got both of his wrists tied up. But the truth is, he has both of your hands tied up too

That's true but the difference is "you don't know when I'm going to release my grip." The decision is on me and not on you. I have a feeling that some people may not even agree on this. The police handcuff may be a good example here. Police put handcuff on you to "restrict your freedom". Even if you have the ability to break that handcuff but since you have to spend time to do that, you are already one step behind.

The wrist grip is only a temporary hold. The purpose is to direct your opponent's attention on his wrists so he won't think about his attack. Temporary put him in defense mode.

Why grab both hands? Why not step to your opponent's left and grab (or otherwise block) his left arm with your left arm? That way your right arm is free to do whatever you want.

You are talking about to use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm. That's a good strategy too.

If you just grab your opponent's wrists, he can hit you with his elbows. If you grab his elbows, he can hit with his hands. In both cases he can use your grip as leverage if he's faster than you-- it doesn't matter as much who's holding who as it matters who responds faster once the connection is made.

If you grab my wrist, I can drop my elbow to your chest and break your grip. You can also drop your elbow into my chest. The chance is 50-50. But since you don't have to break my grip, you are in "dominate situation". If you grab my elbow, you have control my arm completely. Since the elbow is futher away from reach, It's hard to get the elbow control without to get the wrist control first.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I think the concept is great. However I find it very difficult to get wrist grips on anyone who has decent feeling skills. They are also easy to break compared to most other grips. However if you can get the grips you describe you definitely have an advantage. You have more leverage and you can control them better. However I try to enter and do something immediately with grips, its when you wait too long that they can hit you or do something.

[chimerical tortoise]

IMO, this is more powerful than just "build an arm bridge" that your oponent can destroy that bridge anytime he wants to. This "control your opponent's striking weapons" concept is not popular in the striking arts but it's a very important concept in both the eastern and western throwing arts.

For the most part I think that the forearm contacting the opposing limb (your L forearm on his R forearm) is ideally done at the wrist. This offers maximum leverage and also makes it harder for him to cuo (friction rub?) a strike into you. Done properly you are very sensitive to any opening or change of intention.

In trapping/striking theory the opponent should not have an easy time to destroy that bridge. If they disengage then you ideally have a straight line to their centre, and if they grab your arm then you have a chance to affect their structure. Unless they are much faster/already evading it is a disadvantage to them. Also, it requires less precision than grabbing to be effectively used.

the type of practice found in southern systems to develop "bridge hand" and bridging skill is anything but soft and noodling.

And consider this: when you use both hands to grab your opponent's both wrists, you think you've got both of his wrists tied up. But the truth is, he has both of your hands tied up too.

Said far better than I could have.

(and for T3H R34L SH1T!!1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM

[johnwang]

How can I affect your structure if you grab me? Do you affect my structure instead (since you can shake me but I can't shake you)? Never heard when a police put handciff on a criminal, that criminal has more control over that police than that police has control over that criminal.

I must miss something very important here? Do you guys always assume that the person being grabbed always have better Tinjin than the other? I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.

[Antony Wood]

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread about grabing. I practice Qi Xing Tang Lang, and there are a lot of quick grabs and catches in the system. I sparr a lot with guys from different styles, and I have to say that one thing that almost always works is the grab-grab-punch, or a variation on the tanglang hook graple pluck technique. I grab the lead wrist of my opponent, then the other wrist (usually when he tries to punch) and then punch with the hand that grabbed first. For me it has worked a lot, also I can attack low when the opponent is trying to figure out what to do about my grabbing. I think the key is not holding on too long but using the grab as a springboard for the attack.

cheers, Antony

[chimerical tortoise]

John,

I am not saying that the person doing grabbing is assumed to be lower level than the grabbed person. People that have better skill than me can affect me when they grab me. But for myself up until now, I've found it difficult to grab someone coming with a strike, while bridging is easier. I'm learning more about shuai/na from Meeks so my opinion is changing faster than usual these days, but at the present I still think C.J. makes a very important point.

From a VT perspective, I've been told that grabbing is a little slower by nature: two-step (grab, hold) as opposed to striking being one (hit). That said, it's acknowledged that getting grabbed is undesirable and you get out ASAP if possible; if you train at joint manipulation you will be good at joint manipulation, and I will be screwed.

What I meant by affecting the grabber is that the point of grab is the connection point, and if someone is grabbing, by changing the angles of your shoulder/elbow joints, the discomfort shifts to the grabber as soon as you get out. Also the person doing the grabbing may have too much focus on the grab point itself and not on his own stability. But as I've said, I have very limited to no experience in shuai/na, so I probably am unaware of alot of what you mean. My understanding of wrist grab is largely based on getting out of it (as opposed to ability to use it).

[johnwang]

That said, it's acknowledged that getting grabbed is undesirable and you get out ASAP if possible;

If you feel the need to "get out ASAP", your opponent has already put you in defense mode and "temporary" take your offense weapon away. Even Houdini will need few seconds to get out of his handcuff. A lot of thing could happen in those few seconds.

This thread has already generated a lot of different opinions. That's a good sign. It may not die in just 1 or 2 pages.

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread about grabing. I practice Qi Xing Tang Lang, and there are a lot of quick grabs and catches in the system. I sparr a lot with guys from different styles, and I have to say that one thing that almost always works is the grab-grab-punch, or a variation on the tanglang hook graple pluck technique. I grab the lead wrist of my opponent, then the other wrist (usually when he tries to punch) and then punch with the hand that grabbed first. For me it has worked a lot, also I can attack low when the opponent is trying to figure out what to do about my grabbing. I think the key is not holding on too long but using the grab as a springboard for the attack.

cheers, Antony

It's valuable to have a 7 star PM guy to look at this from his style angle.