William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Training...

[CaliG]

I will point out that there is specific 'fight training' you have to go though if you want to fight with Tai Chi. It's not a secret, but you have to ask for it. Most people just don't like getting hit, and that's especially true of the Tai Chi crowd, so don't expect everyone who's trained with Grandmaster Chen to be able to show you the martial.

I also agree with Juan's statements. I've been doing Judo exclusively for about 4 years now. I still move like a Tai Chi guy, and like a SC guy too of course, but that's a different thread.

I completely agree. I do other stuff in a large part because of the first comment that most TJQ people aren't interested in meeting a few times a week and going completely "live." I'm not criticizing them, but as a young man (in my mind anyway) that's the direction I want to go in while I still can.

I'd also go along with the second comment, that once you have TJQ in your body and mind it'll always be there. It won't look like typcial soft TJQ but it'll have a different flavor compared to others in the gym. It doesn't happen overnight but with time you do see your TJQ pop up now and again, especially if you still train it.

[Andy_S]

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boxers articulate the shoulder, Taiji players do not
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When I boxed I was told to strike with the full torso. Not sure what you mean by articulating the shoulder.

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these taiji punches pull the hand into the body at impact and use the back for power.
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Boxing hooks do the same, if taught with the standing, rather than the horizontal fist. (Some gyms teach one way, some teach the other)

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taiji players open and close the joints using spirals from the feet to the hand.
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If you diagramized a boxing cross or overhand, you would see a similar line of force

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while a punch is a punch is a punch. taiji punches, ime, have a different level of refinement. a vector to a taiji player involves the explicit use of fajin, not just blunt force.
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So...can boxers "fajing" or not? If I push from the ball of my rear foot, twist my hips and let the arm shoot out as my weight 'sinks' onto the front leg does this qualify? (That would be a cross or overhand, BTW.)

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it's a different game that incorporates taiji principles, as you assuredly already know.
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Taiji and boxing are assuredly different games, but I don't see any difference in the punching - at least, not as presented on this clip.

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what's on those videos are demos for a beginning internal student.
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Hmmm. "Internal boxing" maybe?

And as Juan notes, there is no 'stiff power' in boxing: It is relaxed and springy.

Big question: Does William Chen box? Or did he? (Certainly, his children kickbox very successfully.)

Frankly, the only difference I see between the presented punches and boxing punches is the stance and footwork. Boxers are up on the balls of the feet - hence the skipping training - and there is no 'peng' in the legs/groin force; the knee can swing inward.

In the style of Taiji I practice (Chen) there are not a large amount of punches....and half of those punches, at least as performed in the form, are aimed down toward the bladder/groin.

[grady]

It's a total anecdote, and second hand at that, but ...

It comes from my primary gongfu instructor, an ex-military man who is not a prone to flights of fancy and witnessed the event at least once in person.

Apparently in NY in the '70's/'80's when Chen was in a good mood he liked to rip a NY city phone book out of the public phone booth on the street, and then split the spine in two with "single whip".

I'm not even sure what that would look like, but I would like to have seen it.

[Kelley Graham]

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while a punch is a punch is a punch. taiji punches, ime, have a different level of refinement. a vector to a taiji player involves the explicit use of fajin, not just blunt force.
SNIP

So...can boxers "fajing" or not? If I push from the ball of my rear foot, twist my hips and let the arm shoot out as my weight 'sinks' onto the front leg does this qualify? (That would be a cross or overhand, BTW.)

if you have yin and yang present where the foot touches the ground, then fajin may be present at the point of contact. to my eyes, very few boxers exhibit this taiji kind of refinement.

as for the arm shooting out... if your power is segmented by using the triceps to 'hinge' the elbow joint, your body will not let the big pulsing fajin power pass through that joint. it's even worse if your shoulder is raised or acting independently. this is what is meant by spiraling 'through' the joints.

what can't really be seen in the video is the expansion of the yang aspects of the body as the yin aspects draw the fist on an inward spiral. this spiral movement must be precisly balanced or the big power will be broken and it will be a normal hook punch. 'to miss by the breadth of a hair is to miss by 1000 miles' and all that.

if there's no balance of yin and yang where the foot touches the ground, you will not have 'spiral leg power', just 'dantian power' and very little of that will pass into the fist.

ime, ymmv, etc,

best regards,

[Danny]

Big question: Does William Chen box? Or did he? (Certainly, his children kickbox very successfully.)

Andy,

I know that William Chen studied western boxing with Mr. Kuo Ch'ing-fong in Taipei for 2 years or so...

Mr. Kuo had been an amateur boxing champion in Shanghai and Chungking in the late 1930's/early 1940's.

(Mr. Kuo was also a student of Cheng Man-ch'ing on the mainland and in Taiwan).


Hope this helps,

Danny

[Andy_S]

Danny:

Yes, this speaks volumes to me, thanks. And I am not putting Chen down: I think a blend of boxing technqiue and training method with Taiji technique and training method is a fine path to take.

Uncarved:

Of course, the shoulder needs to be relaxed to transfer the force, but that is equally true of all body parts. As for feet being yin and yang when they touch the ground, etc: Well you have me there. I boxed for years and have done Taiji for a dozen, and don't know what this means.

[Kelley Graham]

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Uncarved:

Of course, the shoulder needs to be relaxed to transfer the force, but that is equally true of all body parts. As for feet being yin and yang when they touch the ground, etc: Well you have me there. I boxed for years and have done Taiji for a dozen, and don't know what this means.

the classics say that the practitioner must 'clearly separate yin and yang in all its aspects'. when it comes to the legs, my impression is that the commonly held interpretation is that one foot is yin and one yang and that 'clearly separating them' is how you maintain the taiji principles. this is true, but not the end of it. what happens when you are kicking? how do you maintain the principles?

if you're standing on one foot, it too must be clearly separated. if internal power comes from the harmony of yin and yang as the classics tell us, then one part of the foot must always be yin and one yang and these must be in harmony both at the point of contact and where the foot touches the ground. we can then maintain the taiji principles.

so, to avoid going on too long in this post, to my understanding, one separation is that the bones are yang and the 'meat' of the body is yin. where the foot touches the ground is the yang and the cavity or arch the yin. recognizing that the both the qualities - project and expand are yang and absorb and condense yin - are present and that they must be balanced means that spiral force is present. if they're not balanced, spiral force cannot manifest.

ime, the amount of power that is generated is much greater when the principles are followed, then when they are not. i had 10 years of intense taijiquan training under my belt before i was exposed to these refinements as well. i-liq chuan has taken my understanding to a more refined place. i've been lucky with teachers. i feel fortunate to have real work to do for the rest of my life.

anyway, i'm getting tired of hearing myself speak. i hope michaels videos helped clarify wcc chen's punching method.

best regards,

[edit] typo

[Doc Stier]

I wonder how these other arts compared with the influence of Zheng's taijiquan on Chen's actual fighting skill?

I'll ask him if I see him at the Chin Woo Kung-Fu Legends Tournament in Dallas next month. And in the meantime, you could call and ask him yourself. I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you personally.

Doc Stier

[neijia_boxer]

Hopefully a William CC Chen close student will do a youtube on how William CC Chen would do his jab, cross, hook (we saw this earlier) and upper cut which are the 4 basic punches in boxing but with many variations. I'd like to see that.

[Juan]

Hopefully a William CC Chen close student will do a youtube on how William CC Chen would do his jab, cross, hook (we saw this earlier) and upper cut which are the 4 basic punches in boxing but with many variations. I'd like to see that.

It'd be even better if WCC Chen would put out a video demonstrating what you said. I asked my teacher if WCC Chen is planning on putting out a video on martial applications. He said that he has been thinking about doing one for a while but it has not come to fruition. I have his and his daughter's videos on the form.

[Doc Stier]

At this point in his life, William Chen's art and skill are his--regardless of real or speculative connection with past teachers and training.

Indeed! Quite so!

Doc Stier

[neijia_boxer]

Any NYC students of William CC Chen here? can you ask him to make a DVD n Tai chi for fighting?

[Juan]

Any NYC students of William CC Chen here? can you ask him to make a DVD n Tai chi for fighting?

I'd also be interested in seeing a DVD for fighting from Max as he has all kinds of different training under his belt. (Taiji, Sanda, MT, Boxing, Praying Mantis, Shaolin Long Fist)