William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Training...

[H2O]

Did C.C. Chen's stuff for ten years, it was the first art I studied. You're going to get different answers on this depending on who you ask, and exactly how high your understanding is. The system is taught from the general to the specific, so you start off with broad, easy to grasp concepts and then refine it little by little until it becomes very internal. There's also the A-B-C situation going on. If all you know is A, you can't grasp what C is. You have to learn A, then B, then C in that order. I can't tell you how many times I was told to do something in a certain way and would train the hell outta it for months, or even years a couple times. Then, as soon as I got it they would say, "Good, now stop doing that and start doing this instead." It can be frustrating at times, but it's a good, replicable way to teach the internal without all the tree hugging and mental masturbation. Very practical Tai Chi.

I will point out that there is specific 'fight training' you have to go though if you want to fight with Tai Chi. It's not a secret, but you have to ask for it. Most people just don't like getting hit, and that's especially true of the Tai Chi crowd, so don't expect everyone who's trained with Grandmaster Chen to be able to show you the martial.

I also agree with Juan's statements. I've been doing Judo exclusively for about 4 years now. I still move like a Tai Chi guy, and like a SC guy too of course, but that's a different thread.

[Waterway]

Never trained with Mr Chen (different continent!) but I read the excellent Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin, who was a student of Mr Chens. He describes the classes, and in particular the "fighting" class. It sounded pretty tough going at times! Mr Waitzkin was full of praise for Mr Chen right throughout the book. Indeed, in his own words:

" In addition to his intense chess life, Josh is also a gifted athlete deeply involved in the study of the martial arts Tai Chi Chuan and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Josh began studying Tai Chi Chuan with Grandmaster William CC Chen in the fall of 1998. He was drawn into the art by his love for eastern philosophy and by the desire to begin a learning process anew, as a total beginner, away from the spotlight that constantly followed his chess career. In William CC Chen, Josh found the teacher that he had always searched for, "A great master with the humility and generosity that true ‘Quality’ is all about."

http://www.joshwaitzkin.com/bio.html

[Kelley Graham]

here's some examples of william cc chens punching by my taijiquan instructor, michael phillips. i've found the 'taiji punches' series to be great fun over the years.



EDIT: Added part 2 for your convenience

[Bao]

here's some examples of william cc chens punching by my taijiquan instructor, michael phillips. i've found the 'taiji punches' series to be great fun over the years.

Yes, this is a very strong method indeed. I just noticed that Michael has answered some posts on the vid. A very nice approach. He seems to have a great attitude. It would be great to have a few classes with him.

As a side note: William Chen turned my teacher's upper arm almost completely black (!) from shoulder to the elbow, with a "light" forearm strike. That was maybe 15 years ago. I haven't seen anything like this before or after. W. C.C. Chen definitively knows how to strike...

[neijia_boxer]

I liked those videos, i can hear a crisp hit on those mitts.
those videos had a different teaching than the one I did with a william cc chen student, but we worked more than just hooks. we dont drop our hands down like that either and go for forearm blocking using roll back.

I would however be interested as to how William CC chen teaches his uppercuts with stepping.

how you could put that punching video info into a Tai Chi hitting workout:

hook punch taught with 4 details on a focus mitt:
1. practice 'sink and press' hitting 50 x (25 each arm) with arm arced.
2. add to sink and press with the 'step and tap' drill 50 x
3. add to sink and press and 'step and tap' with stepping across target line 50 x
4. add to sink and press, 'step and tap' across target line with 'circle and spiral' fist 50 x

after you have the hook understood-
1. body hook with left, head hook with left, and right hook
2. body hook with right, head hook with right, left hook
3. 3- left, right , left
4. 3- right left right
5. hooks stepping forward
6. hooks stepping backward

[H2O]

I would however be interested as to how William CC chen teaches his uppercuts with stepping.

Same idea. You step and compress into the front leg, then throw the uppercut as you 'energize' or push into the front leg. The back leg isn't stepping so much as it is being pulled by the front leg, not unlike Xing Yi's following step.

Also, stepping into every punch is a training idea, not a fighting idea. In fighting, you throw the punch from wherever you happen to be. Sometimes it's a step, sometimes it's a shift, and sometimes it's just compress and go without stepping. Entirely dependant on what's going on between you and the opponent at that point in time and space.

[Kelley Graham]

I liked those videos, i can hear a crisp hit on those mitts.
those videos had a different teaching than the one I did with a william cc chen student, but we worked more than just hooks. we dont drop our hands down like that either and go for forearm blocking using roll back.

I would however be interested as to how William CC chen teaches his uppercuts with stepping.

how you could put that punching video info into a Tai Chi hitting workout:

hook punch taught with 4 details on a focus mitt:
1. practice 'sink and press' hitting 50 x (25 each arm) with arm arced.
2. add to sink and press with the 'step and tap' drill 50 x
3. add to sink and press and 'step and tap' with stepping across target line 50 x
4. add to sink and press, 'step and tap' across target line with 'circle and spiral' fist 50 x

after you have the hook understood-
1. body hook with left, head hook with left, and right hook
2. body hook with right, head hook with right, left hook
3. 3- left, right , left
4. 3- right left right
5. hooks stepping forward
6. hooks stepping backward

nice workout...

the dropping of the hands is part of our 'walking the body' training. since we don't really train for sport contexts, many of our drills begin from a hands down 'standing at the bus stop' position. also, for beginners a guard position makes them very tense which means there's no 'song'. it's very difficult to get where the power lives if your shoulders are tense and articulate at impact. as michael mentions, this is where rotator cuff injury will occur.

as students skill advances, so does the guard position and other niceties.

the stepping forward with uppercut is fun too.

michael's next punching vids will likely be on poker-cruncher, backfists and then uppercuts and combos of all.

thanks for the kind words.

best regards,

edit: corrected speling eror

[Andy_S]

Have just watched the first Michael Phelps clip, which makes me ask this:
What is it that differentiates his "Taiji Punching" method from boxing? (And perhaps the same question might be asked for William Chen's method too, though Juan has perhaps already answered that above: it is the sticking)

Everything Phelps says - sinking into the front leg prior to hooking, creating an X vector with punches (yes, in boxing they call it the rear hand straight punch a 'cross' for a reason), using torque through the legs and back muscles to genearate power - is Boxing 101, albeit he may never had learned any boxing himself.

Though he could certainly benefit from learning to throw punches from a guard - and by teaching his pad man hold to hold the hook and jabs in a target-specific way.

[Kelley Graham]

michael phillips started with boxing as a kid in alphabet city.

the pad man holds the pad for these initial drills so that the strike can be arranged and song can be maintained. as skill progresses, the pad work and guard and all come into play.

boxers articulate the shoulder, taiji players do not. these taiji punches pull the hand into the body at impact and use the back for power. taiji players open and close the joints using spirals from the feet to the hand. while a punch is a punch is a punch. taiji punches, ime, have a different level of refinement. a vector to a taiji player involves the explicit use of fajin, not just blunt force. it's a different game that incorporates taiji principles, as you assuredly already know.

what's on those videos are demos for a beginning internal student.

best regards,

[H2O]

What is it that differentiates his "Taiji Punching" method from boxing? (And perhaps the same question might be asked for William Chen's method too, though Juan has perhaps already answered that above: it is the sticking)

Here's a few differences I picked up when I started learning to box. The interesting note was my trainer thought I had boxed before because I had 'good form'. When turning the waist, Tai Chi has more of a tendency to sink into the front foot and 'pull' the waist around. Boxing pushes off the back foot to turn the waist and shift into the front leg. The actaul movement the body makesis very similar.

Boxing holds the elbow a little higher, which changes the line of force. In boxing, you can feel the force channel throught the elbow, into the shoulder, down the back into the leg. Tai Chi bypasses the shoulder more, and you feel the force go straight into you lats.

Tai Chi does not have a true jab, it had a good lead hand straight, but it's not used like a jab. Boxing doesn't have sticking like Tai Chi does, although it does have some similar things.

There's a lot of little stuff, but there's also a lot of little stuff between ttwo Tai Chi styles, or two Boxing styles.

[Bao]

Everything Phelps says - sinking into the front leg prior to hooking, creating an X vector with punches (yes, in boxing they call it the rear hand straight punch a 'cross' for a reason), using torque through the legs and back muscles to genearate power - is Boxing 101,

Taijiquan has a practicing method that emphasise relaxation and softness much more than boxing. To be able to use relaxation and softness needs a lot of practice, just like strength and hard muscles. Maybe good striking is just good striking, and in many ways different path will lead to similar goals. But still, we certainly walk very different roads.

[cerebus]

Lots of great information here! Many thanks! And I really like the Phelps vids...

[Juan]

Everything Phelps says - sinking into the front leg prior to hooking, creating an X vector with punches (yes, in boxing they call it the rear hand straight punch a 'cross' for a reason), using torque through the legs and back muscles to genearate power - is Boxing 101,

Taijiquan has a practicing method that emphasise relaxation and softness much more than boxing. To be able to use relaxation and softness needs a lot of practice, just like strength and hard muscles. Maybe good striking is just good striking, and in many ways different path will lead to similar goals. But still, we certainly walk very different roads.

The relaxation is not unique to Taiji although that is what most people believe. Whenever I work with my boxing coach at the boxing gym, he is constantly reminding me to relax when I'm throwing combos. I think I hear the words relax out of him just as much as I do from my Taiji teacher. I think Taiji does a better job of marketing relaxation because of the form work but in boxing (as in pretty much every art) relaxation, especially when punching, is key.

[Kelley Graham]

Lots of great information here! Many thanks! And I really like the Phelps vids...

fyi... michael phillips, not phelps.

[cerebus]

Lots of great information here! Many thanks! And I really like the Phelps vids...

fyi... michael phillips, not phelps.

Doh! Oops...