the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Thanks you all for your help!

.

Bill wrote:

klonk wrote:[ That'd be Sophia Delza, I think. Wu style?

Sophia Delza

A graduate of Hunter College, she trained as a modern dancer and toured the United States performing Spanish and modern dance during the 1920's.

She also performed with her sister, Elizabeth, in the late 1920's at the Neighborhood Playhouse.

She lived in Shanghai from 1948 to 1951 and was the first American dancer to teach modern dance in Chinese theater and dance schools.

Ms. Delza also became an expert on Chinese theatrical dancing after studying action dance roles in the classical Chinese theater with Wang Fu-Ying and Cheng Chuan-Chien. She gave lectures and dance recitals on the material throughout the United States.

She was fascinated by the T'ai Chi Ch'uan practiced in the parks, but unable to find anyone willing to teach a Westerner. A back injury during a Chinese dance class led to referral to Master Ma Yueh-liang, who agreed to allow her to become his student, and they remained close until her death.

She founded the Delza School of Tai Chi Chuan at Carnegie Hall in 1954 and later taught at schools including the State University of New York at Purchase, the Actor's Studio and the University of Hawaii.

She also taught and lectured on tai chi in live appearances and on television, writing the first book in English on the subject.

Wow, she must have been a real pionier, and she even got the academic Wide-Giles spelling on the book cover totally correct: T'ai-Chi Ch'üan (modern Pinyin: Taijiquan).

In the UK and US at least, Taiji was introduced very much as a gentle movement excercise or dance: Gerda Geddes and Sophia Delza were both dancers. Rose Li, whose main expertise was HsingI, taught Taiji to her students first, with minimal martial intent. Then Cheng Man-ching landed in NYC just in time for the hippy movement: This was when Taiji began to be seen as a new age exercise for gentle people with lots of hair and a taste for Eastern "spirituality." Few of the students of those above (Robert Smith being a notable exception) learned the material as MA.

In China at least, Taiji had 50 years of solid oral history behind it before it was introduced to the masses of old ladies in around the 1920s, although I suspect that even by then, much of the combat history was fairy tales. In the West, I don't really think there was much recognition of this slow, dance-like exercise as a method of combat/martial arts even in the Bruce Lee/David Carradine kung fu explosion of the 1970s.

These days, I don't think there is much difference in the approaches East and West.

According to a statistical survey I just happened to make up, 99.89 percent of people do not practice Taiji as a martial art, and 96.73 percent of the above, are, in fact, not even aware that what they are practicing is (or more germanely, was) a martial art.

Sadly enough, I have met Tai Chi "instructors" teaching professionally who assured me (after I had mentioned something about the "martial" or "combat" aspects of Tai Chi) that I was mistaken. Tai Chi, I was assured, is NOT a martial art, I MUST be thinking of Tae Kwon Do.

Me: Ummmm... no, I mean Tai Chi. Do you really not realize it is a martial art?

"instructor": No, really you are mistaken. Tae Kwon Do is the martial art you're thinking of. Tai Chi is a slow-motion dance for health.

Me: Well.... I realize that's how it's often taught, but it USED TO BE a martial art. And some instructors still teach it as such.

"instructor": Listen, I'm an INSTRUCTOR in Tai Chi, I KNOW what Tai Chi is. You're thinking of Tae Kwon Do....

Me: ............... 'kay bye....

ck chu had students fighting full contact open (any hard/soft style) tournaments in the mid-seventies.

i think wm cc chen did too. but yes, when i moved to nyc, they were the only two doing this that i knew of.

Tom,

Are you still in Texas right at this moment? I'm in California right now (80 miles north of Santa Barbara) and may stay here until 7/10. I'm not trying to play the game "If you come, I'll leave. If you leave, I'll come back." with you. It's just I need to get out of that red state and have some fresh air.

hi john!

i just sent you a PM.

LOL at your sense of humor.

i hope we do get a chance to get together!

I studied with Sofia Delza when she was in her late eighties, she still moved well. She was a dancer who learnt from Ma Yueh Liang and taught at the UN from 1955. She was no fighter but had a very good understanding of body kinesiology, posture and movement, her form were a little different from other Wu stylists, maybe MYL changed it over the years. Also studied with Liu Da a contemporary of CMC in 1970, he was teaching in the 60's.
Met Kuo in 1970, he was very agile, I think he was in his 70's and had just fathered a child, I heard he was a bodyguard at one time.

KEND wrote:I studied with Sofia Delza when she was in her late eighties, she still moved well. She was a dancer who learnt from Ma Yueh Liang and taught at the UN from 1955. She was no fighter but had a very good understanding of body kinesiology, posture and movement, her form were a little different from other Wu stylists, maybe MYL changed it over the years.

Since Tai Chi-Chuan was often presented back in the early days as a health exercise only, or as a kind of Chinese dance with metaphysical overtones, it initially attracted more students from backgrounds in modern dance, yoga, and meditation, than it did those with any kind of martial arts background.

The perceived physical beauty of the movement patterns, the possible health benefits, and the anticipated spiritual aspects attributed to Tai-Chi practice, made it the perfect New Age Hippie fad during the 1960's and '70's.

With all the Peace and Love goin' around, it was like really "far out, man"..."out of sight"!

Doc Stier

KEND wrote:I studied with Sofia Delza when she was in her late eighties, she still moved well. She was a dancer who learnt from Ma Yueh Liang and taught at the UN from 1955. She was no fighter but had a very good understanding of body kinesiology, posture and movement, her form were a little different from other Wu stylists, maybe MYL changed it over the years. Also studied with Liu Da a contemporary of CMC in 1970, he was teaching in the 60's.
Met Kuo in 1970, he was very agile, I think he was in his 70's and had just fathered a child, I heard he was a bodyguard at one time.

Hi Ken,

could you elaborate on those differences between her form and other Wu styles? That would be very interesting.

TIA
CD

Its a while ago, but I seem to remember the opening form was different, and some other moves like the 'fan' and 'needle' were different.As far as I know there is no video of her performing but compare the moves in her book with those of Ma's son,who is on video. The other branches outside of Shanghai [Toronto, Honk Kong, Beijing] show a form that is markedly different to Ma's.
There is some info on this at www.martialhub.com/chinese_internal/chinese_taichi.html -

I've studied under one of Sophia Delza's students from New York, that now teaches in California. I very much sympathize with cerebus' observation that Tai Chi instructors in the West are by in large horribly ignorant of the martial aspects of Tai Chi. I suggest reading Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang's writings on Tai Chi as he is well informed in both White Crane and Yang-style and seems able to write well in translating complex technical Chinese into English. I'd also recommend Wong Kiew Kit's book "Complete Tai Chi" because it includes some combat sets for Yang style application to give you a taste.

Really though, the problem with the translation of this art from the East to the West is the issue of understanding Chi Theory ("ki" to all you karatekas out there). If you don't get Chi, then the martial application of Tai Chi (which is the integration of chi with physical motion) will seem silly, flowery and weak. The mistake lies in trying to find in Tai Chi something that looks like chuan fa. Energy is the key here.

Sadly we, as well as the Chinese by reports, are lacking in instructors that understand and can teach this. Ironically those looking for the health benefits will not find even these in the empty form as it is commonly taught, as these come from practiced use of chi; not from "waving your hands around real slow".

I am optimistic, however. Bruce Frantzis has just written a comprehensive but general book on the combat applications of the energy side of the internal martial arts. I am hoping that this will generate greater interest in Tai Chi as a fighting art and maybe help bring out chi cultivation into our martial parlance.

taiwandeutscher wrote:

Bill wrote:

klonk wrote:[ That'd be Sophia Delza, I think. Wu style?

Sophia Delza

A graduate of Hunter College, she trained as a modern dancer and toured the United States performing Spanish and modern dance during the 1920's.

She also performed with her sister, Elizabeth, in the late 1920's at the Neighborhood Playhouse.

She lived in Shanghai from 1948 to 1951 and was the first American dancer to teach modern dance in Chinese theater and dance schools.

Ms. Delza also became an expert on Chinese theatrical dancing after studying action dance roles in the classical Chinese theater with Wang Fu-Ying and Cheng Chuan-Chien. She gave lectures and dance recitals on the material throughout the United States.

She was fascinated by the T'ai Chi Ch'uan practiced in the parks, but unable to find anyone willing to teach a Westerner. A back injury during a Chinese dance class led to referral to Master Ma Yueh-liang, who agreed to allow her to become his student, and they remained close until her death.

She founded the Delza School of Tai Chi Chuan at Carnegie Hall in 1954 and later taught at schools including the State University of New York at Purchase, the Actor's Studio and the University of Hawaii.

She also taught and lectured on tai chi in live appearances and on television, writing the first book in English on the subject.

Wow, she must have been a real pionier, and she even got the academic Wide-Giles spelling on the book cover totally correct: T'ai-Chi Ch'üan (modern Pinyin: Taijiquan).

She was a good friend of my great uncle and aunt Edgar & Lois, who were very connected into China(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Snow) wish I had made the connection at the time.