The fake strike becomes the real strike

[DeusTrismegistus]

How do you train this?

As I understand it this pertains to feinting. If you feint and they react your feint is a feint. If you feint and they don't react then you should continue the strike. How do you train to do this? I was thinking about it yesterday I thought I would ask.

[SPJ]

some general ideas.

1. left, right

2. high mid low: 3 levels.

3. fake hand moves to cover kicks.

4. drawing hands to set up for throws.


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we practice several moves together.

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[Strange]

as i understand it, all start as real strikes. when opponent touch/block/intercept the strike, you "give" the strike to them. then you change stroke or continue the same strike with the other hand, usually in different level or area.
for the opponent, it becomes a "damned if you do; damned if you dont" situation.

Shanghai Tiger Chu GuiTing is famous for this.
hope this helps, cheers
S.

[C.J.Wang]

The way I am taught, it's not about feinting. It's about the interplay of Yin and Yang.

You initiate an attack (Yang) on the opponent. If he fails to block or tries to block but has weaker structure than yours, you simply issue power and blast through him because you are Yang and he is Yin.

If he blocks with superior structure and/or can neutralize/counter your initial effort, the Yang part that touches the opponent should immediately shift to Yin and becomes passive, receiving, and neutralizing. And as that Yang part shifts to Yin, another part that was Yin becomes Yang -- active, attacking, and aggressive -- to attack the opponent.

It can go on and on and on..........until one side is down.

[dragontigerpalm]

The way I am taught, it's not about feinting. It's about the interplay of Yin and Yang.

You initiate an attack (Yang) on the opponent. If he fails to block or tries to block but has weaker structure than yours, you simply issue power and blast through him because you are Yang and he is Yin.

If he blocks with superior structure and/or can neutralize/counter your initial effort, the Yang part that touches the opponent should immediately shift to Yin and becomes passive, receiving, and neutralizing. And as that Yang part shifts to Yin, another part that was Yin becomes Yang -- active, attacking, and aggressive -- to attack the opponent.

It can go on and on and on..........until one side is down.

Well said. This is very similar to my understanding of I Liq Chuan where there is also no feinting.

[chimerical tortoise]

as i understand it, all start as real strikes. when opponent touch/block/intercept the strike, you "give" the strike to them. then you change stroke or continue the same strike with the other hand, usually in different level or area.
for the opponent, it becomes a "damned if you do; damned if you dont" situation.

My understanding of VT and the often heard "non-committed attacks" is that every strike should be intentional. If he doesn't intercept you hit him. If he intercepts then you either (a) go through, or (b) change/protect yourself from the intercepting hand and then go through.

I had the chance to play with a xibeiquan guy once, who showed me that fanzi had very interesting ways of drawing your attention using a strike in one direction (particularly up/down) to set up an opening for a strike in another direction. From what I remember, formwork is very helpful, but he also had a fair bit of dui da practice. In his sense, a feint is only a feint because it doesn't land, not because it has no power.

[Josealb]

As a simple example...you feed him one thing...and you show him whats "coming" next...so he forgets what you fed him at the start, which changes and ends its original intention.

Think Paoquan. Top arm is the real one, but starts as "fake". Then acts as soon as the other guys intent goes to the original striking hand. Makes sense?

[johnwang]

The moment that you move, the moment that your opponent will response. Form the initial response that his body moviement, you can pretty much tell what his intention will be. You can also judge whether his intention will cause any problem for you or not. If you move in fast, and your opponent responses fast, it will be very hard for him to fake his response. Those are the information that you can use to decide whether you should give 100% on your 1st strikung or change it into combo.

[Areios]

well mostly if I do a fake attack and I see that he's not going to be able to defend, than I give him what I still can ge t out of it.

[johnwang]

well mostly if I do a fake attack and I see that he's not going to be able to defend, than I give him what I still can ge t out of it.

A friend of mine met someone on internet. He told her that he loved her on their 1st date (I don't think he truly means it because he is a playboy). They end up marry any way.

[everything]

The way I am taught, it's not about feinting. It's about the interplay of Yin and Yang.

You initiate an attack (Yang) on the opponent. If he fails to block or tries to block but has weaker structure than yours, you simply issue power and blast through him because you are Yang and he is Yin.

If he blocks with superior structure and/or can neutralize/counter your initial effort, the Yang part that touches the opponent should immediately shift to Yin and becomes passive, receiving, and neutralizing. And as that Yang part shifts to Yin, another part that was Yin becomes Yang -- active, attacking, and aggressive -- to attack the opponent.

It can go on and on and on..........until one side is down.

Well said. This is very similar to my understanding of I Liq Chuan where there is also no feinting.

I thought this is what all IMA say. There is no obvious beginning and end of issuing force. I don't know what that means as far as feints. If someone perceives your bridging move as a feint and it trips them up, is it a feint if you had no feinting intention?

[Areios]

well mostly if I do a fake attack and I see that he's not going to be able to defend, than I give him what I still can ge t out of it.

A friend of mine met someone on internet. He told her that he loved her on their 1st date (I don't think he truly means it because he is a playboy). They end up marry any way.

[EightExtremesBoxer]

I thought this is what all IMA say. There is no obvious beginning and end of issuing force. I don't know what that means as far as feints. If someone perceives your bridging move as a feint and it trips them up, is it a feint if you had no feinting intention?

I firmly believe you should strive for a formlessness in intention/action which makes the distinction meaningless/impossible.

[dragontigerpalm]

The way I am taught, it's not about feinting. It's about the interplay of Yin and Yang.

You initiate an attack (Yang) on the opponent. If he fails to block or tries to block but has weaker structure than yours, you simply issue power and blast through him because you are Yang and he is Yin.

If he blocks with superior structure and/or can neutralize/counter your initial effort, the Yang part that touches the opponent should immediately shift to Yin and becomes passive, receiving, and neutralizing. And as that Yang part shifts to Yin, another part that was Yin becomes Yang -- active, attacking, and aggressive -- to attack the opponent.

It can go on and on and on..........until one side is down.

Well said. This is very similar to my understanding of I Liq Chuan where there is also no feinting.

I thought this is what all IMA say. There is no obvious beginning and end of issuing force. I don't know what that means as far as feints. If someone perceives your bridging move as a feint and it trips them up, is it a feint if you had no feinting intention?

If a strike is perceived as a feint then it is not a feint - where's the deception. If your bridge is not effectively dealt with by your opponent then it lands as a successful strike. As I see it, when you feint with your left for example you are essentially committing to your follow up strike with your right. That decision makes you less responsive to your opponent's reaction so that if your opponent blocks/evades the left as he moves to his right(your left) your committed follow up right is a non-issue and you have a gap in your attentiveness to your opponent.

[Felipe Bidó]

Interesting thread. I want to post a lot about this, but I dont have computer at home. Just keep it on topic until I can post