The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

[Chris McKinley]

John,

RE: "Skill is not difficult to develop but ability is. We may be able to learn all 40 joint locking moves in 2 days but it may take our life time to mater it.". That's certainly true, but then again, we need not master something to use it. And frankly, if your art required that you actually master something before it could become functional, your art would be a steaming pile of crap. Remember, the goal isn't to develop gung fu, it's to be able to defend yourself. Developing gung fu is something we do in pursuit of that objective; it is not the objective in and of itself.

[Chris Fleming]

How hard is it to dial 911? Even little kids can do it under real pressure.

Skill is not difficult to develop but ability is. We may be able to learn all 40 joint locking moves in 2 days but it may take our life time to mater it.

Kung Fu means time and effort. There is no Kung Fu involved in dailing 911.

Hey, John, I didn't write that quote. And I happen to agree with you.

[BruceP]

There is no Kung Fu involved in dailing 911

John, that was exactly my point. Thank you.

Keeping things simple and direct keeps them workable when our motor-skills are diminished for whatever reason.

[BruceP]

With all due respect for your expert instruction, even given a good technique, your guy was still lucky to have that situation turn out so well, IMO. Not to diminish his impressive victory in any way, I believe that successfully applying a good self-defense technique against a drunken, out of control assailant, who has thrown all caution to the wind, is considerably different than squaring off against a sober, skilled opponent for a serious fight

Jesus...some people just don't get it.

Pain compliance and predictablility are out the window against people who have been drinking and/or hitting the pipe. I'd much rather face a sober, skilled opponent than a tweeker or someone who has had a few beers...if I were ever inclined to square off with an attacker. I've never squared off with anyone outside of sport, and I DO NOT advocate it in the training I do with others. goodgawd!!...he'p me nah!

As for luck? Anyone who comes out the other side of a physically violent encounter unharmed or with minor injuries is lucky. Personally, luck is all I ever had going for me whenever I had to fight for real. I don't know many people who would say different. Things shake out as they shake out. I was lucky that freak looked where my eyes lead his. I was lucky once when the guy swung with his right instead of his left. I was lucky that time when the guy's feet were pointed where they were pointed. I was lucky that drunk focused on headbutting me instead of worrying about his balance...
I'd rather be lucky than good. Good's nice too, though.

[BruceP]

Your man won probably because he had more of a willingness, motivation, and internal preparedness to act, not just because he was taught a simple skill to apply

Where was I when he told the unabridged version? All the guy told me was he remembered corner-pocket when he found himself reorienting after the attacker's flourish. He said it was simple and he felt really safe and in control once he got the wrap. He's not a fighter by any means. He said, "WTF's your problem, man?" and the guy came at him. It's what the attacker wanted - the olde Dis-The-Wife ruse.

Most people tend to freeze under pressure or retreat backwards, if anything. There have been studies of this and it is a given. Some in their self defense courses attempt to capitalize on the natural defensive reactions (SPEAR, also a seminar from Tim Cartmell went over such things) of freezing and/or covering up to protect in hopes of making use of what happens naturally

Yeah. I learned that from my first tjq instructor about 20 years ago. I've been talking about it on the kung fool forums for more than a decade. I was berated and reviled by multitudes of IMA folks for telling such blasphemous lies. Now it's just common sense, right? I'm so glad guys like Tim are at the forefront of bringing this age-old truth about real fighting to the IMA world. It's the vindication I've been waiting for. Other than Mckinley, nobody even knew what I was talking about back in those days.

Something I said to John Wang about a year ago:
"You wait...it won't be long before people start parroting my words as though it was always that obvious to them. I used to talk about stuff here that got laughed at all the time. Now I see people talking about those ideas as though it was always their thinking"

[BruceP]

As for being able to look at someone and have an intuition about their apparent strengths and weaknesses, this is completely reasonable, and we do it naturally.
...in terms of physicality, we readily make value judgments on the physical fight potential of others, i.e., his he big and then perhaps slow, is he smaller and perhaps fast, etc.

I've never, ever done that. Wow...I better pull my head out of my ass and my get my fighter's mind on. I mean, c'mon...do people really do that? Are they really that insecure and unsure of themselves that they have to be making "value judgements on the physical fight potential of others"? LOL

It must be a cultural thing that I haven't experienced yet. I've timed my actions and set up my shit in the ring and on the mat based on what the opp was doing at the time, but I don't have an intuition that reveals the potential of others when poo meets fan blade. I gotta train with some of you real fighters and get the reallly real goods. That's crazy

[Doc Stier]

Doc

[Chris Fleming]

As for being able to look at someone and have an intuition about their apparent strengths and weaknesses, this is completely reasonable, and we do it naturally.
...in terms of physicality, we readily make value judgments on the physical fight potential of others, i.e., his he big and then perhaps slow, is he smaller and perhaps fast, etc.

I've never, ever done that. Wow...I better pull my head out of my ass and my get my fighter's mind on. I mean, c'mon...do people really do that? Are they really that insecure and unsure of themselves that they have to be making "value judgements on the physical fight potential of others"? LOL

It must be a cultural thing that I haven't experienced yet. I've timed my actions and set up my shit in the ring and on the mat based on what the opp was doing at the time, but I don't have an intuition that reveals the potential of others when poo meets fan blade. I gotta train with some of you real fighters and get the reallly real goods. That's crazy

Actually I'll bet you do that all the time. It's called 'thin slicing', as seen in Malcom Gladwell's book "Blink".

[johnwang]

If your post cannot generate any controversy, you may just killed that thread. I had responsed someone's question in another forum. I was so careful in my writting and make sure that nobody could find any thing wrong in my post so they could agrue with me (there are a lot of CMA haters over there). In the last 5 days, there were no repsonse and I know that I just killed that thread for good.

You may see that Chris may just keep this thread alive. He just give me something to argue with. Do I really need to prove that I'm right and he is wrong? Of course not. He may be 100% right and I may be 100% wrong. Who cares, it's just a discussion to have some fun in our boring daily life.

we need not master something to use it. And frankly, if your art required that you actually master something before it could become functional, your art would be a steaming pile of crap.

Chris,

Old Chinese saying said (you know that I just made this up for you - I'm old and I'm Chinese), "To deal with average Joe on the street, you may not need to master anything. To deal with the best of the best, even mastering something may not even be enough."

[Chris McKinley]

I hate to disappoint you, John, but I completely agree with you on that. For some guys, even your best won't do. In the immortal words of Sean Connery in the movie The Rock, "Your best? Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen!"

As I often say, there are some guys you just shoot.

[Mut]

Old Chinese saying said (you know that I just made this up for you - I'm old and I'm Chinese), "To deal with average Joe on the street, you may not need to master anything. To deal with the best of the best, even mastering something may not even be enough."

firstly thx John i just about pissed myself reading this!!!!

to beat Average Joe you may at least need to master your fear for a few seconds

[klonk]

Every old Chinese saying has to get started somewhere!

[Doc Stier]

Doc Stier

[Ian]

Old Chinese saying said (you know that I just made this up for you - I'm old and I'm Chinese), "To deal with average Joe on the street, you may not need to master anything. To deal with the best of the best, even mastering something may not even be enough."

We need to compile a book of John Wang quotes. Seriously.

Five generations later, when shuai jiao becomes an art for health, teenagers will argue about the nuances of these shuai jiao classics on the net.

[Mut]

Doc....

i thought the saying was "fools never differ"?