The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:41 pm

Mut wrote:Doc....

i thought the saying was "fools never differ"?

Mut:

I never hear that one. :-\

"Fools always differ" is probably closer to the truth in the minds of those who consider them fools, since fools are generally perceived to march to the beat of a far distant drummer. However, the belief that "great minds think alike" is obviously used by all sides to any debate across the board. ;D

Doc Stier ;)
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Mut on Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:47 pm

;D
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:01 am

At our best, we are each of us fools, pointlessly and pathetically bleating our hopelessly limited grasp of the obvious for all the world to hear, lest we forget.
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:07 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:At our best, we are each of us fools, pointlessly and pathetically bleating our hopelessly limited grasp of the obvious for all the world to hear, lest we forget.

I'll hoist a pint to that....well, today anyway. -drink-

Perhaps tomorrow will be a better day. :-\

Doc ;)
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:05 pm

At our best, we are each of us fools, pointlessly and pathetically bleating our hopelessly limited grasp of the obvious for all the world to hear, lest we forget.


Chris is one of those "cup half full" kind of guys.
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:03 pm

Nah...to paraphrase George Carlin, it's not that the glass is half full or half empty......the glass is too damn big!
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:42 pm

No! the real question is should I finish it or have I had enough?
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby maverick on Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:38 am

Quite a lot of issues being dealt with and everyone now seems to be going off a tangents. Before we go to far off topic...

I think this whole issue deals with the problems in the way CIMA is taught and so I find it interesting to see the way Chris McKinley talks about his 3 part model for learning. It looks to have similar components to Donald Meichenbaum 3 part model, just focused specifically on martial arts.

When I was studying to understand how to learn martial arts better I found the following from Iwama Aikido that I think looks at what is being talked about here from a slightly different angle.

'Levels of Technique in Aikido Training
There are four levels of technique in Aikido training.

KATAI (rigid)
YAWARAKAI (flexible)
KI-NO-NAGARE (flowing)
KI (spirit)
KATAI training is also known as KIHON (basic), and is what builds the foundation of TAI-SABAKI (body movement) and KOKYU-RYOKU (abdominal breath power). Training is done with a partner, where one person acts as the attacker and the other as the defender, with the roles being reversed after each repetition.

In KATAI training, the attacker establishes a strong grip on the defender's wrist, shoulder or other part of the body. The defender does not attempt to evade the attack, but allows the attacker to attain the initial advantage.

From this situation, the defender must perform a technique to escape from the attacker's grip and take control. The technique must be done accurately, or the defender will not be not be able to escape.

The principle of AWASE in Aikido is to merge into an attacker's movement and take control. It is hardest to do using KATAI technique, and for this reason KATAI is the premiere method for learning strong technique in the shortest possible time. It is training to the hilt, because the defender is dealing with the attacker's full power, and any mistake will result in immediately obvious ineffectiveness.

YAWARAKAI technique is intermediate between KATAI and KI-NO-NAGARE. The principle is similar to that of JUDO, and the chinese character for YAWARAKAI is the same as the JU in JUDO. It comes into play where a defender attempts to perform a KATAI technique, but is overpowered by the attacker. In this case, the defender gives in resiliently (like bamboo in the wind), but deflects the attack in a direction such that he can merge into the movement and take control.

In KI-NO-NAGARE technique, the defender does not wait for the attacker to obtain a grip, but begins merging into the attacker's movement before contact is made. KI-NO-NAGARE is actually most practical for self-defense, and is also known as "leading KI". Aikido is most known for this level of technique.

It is vitally important to establish a solid foundation in KATAI technique before moving on to KI-NO-NAGARE, and to continue training KATAI to prevent losing touch with the basics. A person who is proficient in KATAI can easily learn KI-NO-NAGARE, but a person who has trained only KI-NO-NAGARE will often not be able to move at all if gripped strongly. KATAI training is what tunes a trainee into the reality of physical strength and how to overcome it under the worst possible conditions.

KI is the ultimate of Aikido technique. The defender establishes a link of KI with the defender and merges into the defender's power on a spiritual level.

KI technique can be achieved only after many decades of hard KATAI training. As the founder of Aikido, O-Sensei Morihei Uyeshiba, once stated, "I am what I am today only because I did KATAI training for 50 years".

O-Sensei lived in KI during the latter part of his life. Although many try to imitate O-Sensei's KI technique, few if any have succeeded in achieving anything remotely comparable. KI technique is something that beginners should know is possible, but will only frustrate themselves if they try to do it.

Real KI technique is not a series of exercises based on the power of suggestion, but something profound that comes from tapping into KI. It can be very gentle, as is generally associated with O-sensei in his latter years or, as Morihiro Saito-Sensei describes in his book "Traditional Aikido Vol. 5", on page 36, "Aikido is generally believed to represent circular movements. Contrary to such belief, however, Aikido, in its true KI form, is a fierce art piercing straight through the center of opposition".

In summary, new trainees should concentrate on learning the basics through KATAI training. By doing this, they will establish a solid foundation for the higher levels of technique.'
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby RobP2 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:53 am

Sorry, that doesn't really resonate with me at all. I think it's this whole idea of "levels" and having to name everything. If someone tries to punch you on the nose, you move out of the way and resolve the situation, job done. Your work may be more or less efficient, you may be more or less aware of what is going on and more or less able to cause or control damage, but at the end of the day - you stop a guy punchng you on the nose. Millions of people manage it without martial arts training or having a belt or being at "flowing" stage. It's largely common sense and keeping things simple. Technique this, syllabus that, don't punch that way, keep your elbows in/out all just gets in the way of your basic survivability IMHO. Basics are advanced and vice versa
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:54 am

maverick wrote:In KATAI training, the attacker establishes a strong grip on the defender's wrist, shoulder or other part of the body. The defender does not attempt to evade the attack, but allows the attacker to attain the initial advantage.

From this situation, the defender must perform a technique to escape from the attacker's grip and take control. The technique must be done accurately, or the defender will not be not be able to escape.

... because the defender is dealing with the attacker's full power, and any mistake will result in immediately obvious ineffectiveness.

Allow me to borrow your statement in my other thread. I had tried to explain what you have just said but failed big time. I think the key words are, "escape", "take control", "full power", and "ineffectieness". The most important is the words "initial advantage".
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Fundamental Logical Flaw of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 pm

maverick,

I'm not familiar with Meichenbaum's work. I have to kind of echo what Rob is saying regarding the levels you mention....that's not really what I'm about at all. I'm not separating the training content into specific levels; I'm drawing my distinctions in the learning process, regardless of what is being learned content-wise. I don't teach people tactics that aren't meant to work "as is", i.e., techniques that are only taught as purely training level. It's a waste of time and teaches bad habits.
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