How many minimum drills do we need?

[Bao]

Let's just take 3 punches, 3 kicks, and 3 throws to simplify the discussion:

- Jab (straight line), hook (horizontal curve), upper cut (vertical curve).
- front kick (straight line), round house kick (horizontal curve), side kick (straight line)
- leg block (side way rotation), hip throw (forward bending), inner hook (horizontal leg curve),

I would not consider the first 6 as drill practice. This is just practicing 3 different punches and 3 different kicks. The 3 different throwing techniques I don't know much about, but it seems that if it becomes solo practice, these 3 would become more like drills.

Like Piquan is not just one block and one punch. It teach you how do work with your body with vertical movement. This is just like practicing 'hip throw', or 'forward bending'. It will let you practice a basic body method for a whole range of throws, not just one. This is the difference between practicing one single punch (a very limited way of practice) and practicing a "drill" (a basic body method for a lot of variations).

Single punch and single kicking practice should always be made on a surface, a bag or protection. "air-practice" is something more abstract, it teach you different things than the actual punch or kick, which need actual resistance to become a 'true' punch or 'true' kick.

[johnwang]

I think the "completeness" is the key word here. If you don't care about certain offense skill such as "round house kick", "upper cut", "leg lifting throw", ... and you don't train those moves at all then you don't have to worry about this issue at all.

basic principles as alignment, balance and full body movement?

A "leg lifting" drill will require:

- head, upper body, and lifting leg to be in one straight line (alignment).
- standing on single leg (balance).
- moving your body as one unit (full body movement).

Will you say that a "drill" is a set of "principles"? By training one drill, you can train many principles at the same time?

combat training when that formula just doesn't exist that way in reality.

You may be right there. I'm not trying to train any "style". I want to train "combat - everything". If I think the

- "spin back kick" in TKD,
- "flying knee" in MT,
- "arm bar" in BJJ,
- ...

are useful, I'll include those as my training program. The "style" has no meaning at this point of my life.

[johnwang]

When I started this thread, I may not state my purpose clearly enough. My purpose is to design a full Sanshou, Shanda, combat SC, or kickboxing training program. How much information should it include. Hope this detail defined goal can lead the discussion into the right direction.

I don't think I can teach a Shanshou guy without teaching him the following material:

- jab, hook, upper cut, back fist, ...
- front kick, side kick, round house kick, ...
- hip throw, leg block, leg bite, leg twist, ...
- entering strategies, bridge building, combo strategies, finish strategies, ...
- equipment training,
- ...

So how can I design a "minimum daily training program" either by using principle base or technique base? If you are a Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, LF, PM, WC, Baiji, or ... master, how will you train your students to compete those full contact tournament?

You can divide strikes into many different principles and combine into many different strikes as well. There are many different ways to generate punching power.

This is a very interest idea. How do you divide strikes into different principles? How many principle will be needed for the following moves (assuming that one "must" learn all those moves - skipping any of those training will not be an option)?

- vertical fist (as XingYi Beng Chuan)
- horizontal fist (as LF Tza Da)
- Hook punch (as PM Chuan Chui)
- Upper cut (as boxing upper cut)
- hammer fist (as LF hammer fist)
- side punch (as XingYi Heng Chuan)
- back fist (as Taiji turn around hammer)

[Chris McKinley]

John,

You're now stating, "When I started this thread, I may not state my purpose clearly enough. My purpose is to design a full Sanshou, Shanda, combat SC, or kickboxing training program. How much information should it include.". That makes a helluva lot more sense and is a far more productive goal. Now at least the objective can be opened to more useful ideas than what specific number of drills will produce a competent fighter for all people under all conditions.

In that case, rather than worry about numbers of drill sets, you're better off focusing on the total mix of material and the relative ratios each aspect might enjoy. Fifty additional sets of hook punches when you've already covered that technique might not be as productive as spending that same amount of time covering some throws, or some counter-takedowns.

[wiesiek]

JW
"Long Form"
was designed for such purpose /everything in one set/, wasn`t it?
do you think that it doesn`t work?

[wiesiek]

and
i think that
creation of the new "long form"is really worth to consider
old forms are..hmm, really old
and not nessesary are best for contemporary world
but
i`m not the forms expert,
so bellow is plenty of space for forms versed RSFers

[SPJ]

I think we need to narrow down or focus on some aspects.

if we are weak on certain aspect, we spend more time on it.

depending on time available daily, we may break it down to 2 or 3 segments

1. first segment would be to practice as many things as we could

2. 2nd segment would be focusing on things we are not so good, such as kicks, if we are very good at punches already, or pick just one drill or one move and focus on that only.

3. 3rd segment to practice some combo or variants to combine the thing you focus on in 2. with some other stuff in 1.

our goal is to improve on our weakness (more time) and not forgetting things we are already good at thus less time for them.

if you are really limited, I would allot almost all the time to practice something new or moves that we are not so good at.

and then incorporate it into our old or better moves.

[JusticeZero]

Well, what do you feel has changed between then and now that makes the forms out of date, exactly?

[Bao]

Yes John, I believe - from my own pov - that a drill should not be a practice of one single technique, fist or throw, but practicing a set of principles. Maybe just two or three, but the body mechanics and principles should (in solo practice) be more important than the actual application.

This is a very interest idea. How do you divide strikes into different principles?

One good example of using different body mechanics divided into sets of drills is XPQ/HYB lineage Yin Bagua. One animal represent one kind of body mechanics. Lion (qian trigram, three yang lines) is where the whole body is equally full and thus the hardest of the animals. Another animal (Pheonix maybe, don't remember) will use a relaxed or disconnected shoulder, but the arm is still "full" and strong. Qilin will be completely yin, totally relaxed, all joints disconnected.

If you divide strikes into different principles, the key point will be what principles you are using and not what strike. You can do a short right hook where you tense all your muscles, or you can just relax your arm while using your waist and just like you do an "arm swinging exercise". Both will look like a hook, one looking wider and one more compact. How can you say they one of them is not a ho if they both look like hooks? Yet the strength and mechanics will have different qualities.

To make a straight strike à la Beng quan, you can coordinate different movements with different parts of your body into one single movement, or you can just 'throw' your relaxed, empty fist into your opponent and support it with your spine and root right upon impact. These two methods might look just the same, but the mechanics are based on two very different philosophies.

[wiesiek]

Well, what do you feel has changed between then and now that makes the forms out of date, exactly?

weapons, society relationship, all kinds of borders , in fact whole world is constantly in change
so
why do you think that fighting form should be unchangable?

only human nature is like pyramid stady pile of stones
and
this is only reason which i can thinkin`of...
wait
i`m wrong
even pyramids are in constant change
human nature stays allone
so, we have the 2nd reason then

dont get me wrong ,
this is very important factor / like we have two legs ...etc/
but
any form was created in certain enviroment ...

[edededed]

You may be right there. I'm not trying to train any "style". I want to train "combat - everything". If I think the

- "spin back kick" in TKD,
- "flying knee" in MT,
- "arm bar" in BJJ,
- ...

are useful, I'll include those as my training program. The "style" has no meaning at this point of my life.

Hmm - would be interesting to get the best techniques of each style and put them together

Why not add:

Chuanzhang (from baguazhang)
Yuanyangjiao (from chuojiao)
Bengquan (from xingyiquan)
Wulongpanda (from piguaquan)
...and so on?

[meeks]

I like this question....

I don't think there's any 'right' answer to this though. I find that each person has their own strengths and weaknesses. This leads to 1 person needing to practice 1 drill while another person should focus on a different training drill...there's some exercises my classmates learned that I never did - at first I was a bit pissed off - I though my Shifu was favoring them, but he said "no - his legs are weak, you don't need to learn that one...". Granted that's only a conditioning exercise, but even other drills are the same way.

In my first year (I was about 12 years old) I could do a couple of techniques very well, but other ones were 'over my head' and I stayed away from them. The following year I had some good foundation and now other drills were more my focus, and in fact, the techniques that I practiced the previous year, while I still touched on them now and then, I found them to be of little use, since the opponents I faced were also more experienced and those basics, while important, became a lot more difficult to implement on someone of the current skill set I faced.

Nutshelling, so I don't make some huge diatribe - I think it's important to learn the majority of drills over time but to always stick to about 6 drills at each 'level' of training (6 being arbitrary but still relatively close to my belief) - that way it ingrains a lot quicker. When I practised Aikikai in small classes, they kept the exercises all at the same level of the students, which was great. We learned a lot because we always did the same drills until a Kyu test in a few months. When I attended classes that were larger (beginners through blackbelts) the training got washed out because they would touch upon so many drills each month that we only did 1 or 2 drills a month that were at my level of training - didn't do much for me at all, and eventually I lost interest.

[Ian]

if you lock a dog in a room for 10 years with only a few toys to play with, he might go mad

[meeks]

yea, but he'll be insanely f-ing adept at playing with those toys - but I think he'd starve to death LONG before madness sets in...

[chimerical tortoise]

Johnwang:

I'm curious what is your opinion towards formwork as a method of training. In the little I saw in Shanghai, one laoshi told me that they teach:

up to age 13: wushu formwork, LF, nanquan etc.
13-19: sanda
19- : XYQ/TJQ/BGZ

At the time I thought that this was a huge emphasis on 'unneccessary' formwork but I've since reconsidered. Playing with wu bu quan, most of the applications I wouldn't dare use against a live resisting opponent, but it let me think of movement in a way I didn't previously consider. As edededed says, maybe you could say that there's a series of jibengong that are useful? To that list I'd add xiao nian tou from yongchunquan, for example.

My question to you would be, do you think that solo formwork is a useful method in addition to the sanda program? If so, what do you think it trains you for that sanda, bagwork, or otherwise paired work does not? What forms would you consider useful?