copied from the original forum:
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 8:37pm
Internal, to me, is not a matter of system or style. It is a matter of body mechanics and related concepts. I believe many people confuse "soft" and "relaxed" with internal skills. I believe there are many Taiji and Bagua and similar players of Chinese martial arts who are soft and relaxed but have no internal skills to speak of.
In my experience, internal skill consists of having conscious control over muscle groups not generally thought of as being under conscious control, and being able to coordinate them in a fashion that is not, on the face of it, "natural". An example would be compression, or "suojing". Regardless of what a system calls it, this is the contraction of the muscles normally engaged in maintaining erect posture, as well as the intercostals and, at a more advanced stage, the stabilizing muscles at all of the joints in the kinetic chain under consideration. "Soft" and "hard" and "relaxed" don't really have anything to do with this picture. Cooked noodles are soft, and drunks are relaxed, but neither one is an example of internal training.
Posted by: HopGarSanSau Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 8:39pm
mr fish
can you tell me a bit more about those guys you met from back in the day from the southern kung fu lines? which southern kung fu lines influenced/impressed you? and more specifically i kind of want to know about henry leung of the fut sao wing chun lineage and your experience with him if thats ok.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 8:58pm
Sifu Leung was one of the highest level martial arts teachers I ever met - he had absolute control over every muscle and joint in his body, tremendous full body sensitivity and balance, body unity, qigong and neigong. He was one of the few people I met with qinggong skills (Ken Delves can back me up on this). The seemingly relaxed power he could generate was at once wonderful and terrifying. He was one of the yardsticks by which I measured other teachers.
His sticking hands was light as a feather - you could barely feel the contact - but he was always redirecting your entire body and balance with that touch. His wingchun encompassed all of the principles of real internal skill - it was like an education in the application of the classics.
I frequently took martial artists from other schools to meet Henry - they always came away impressed. I took a Chinatown gang instructor there one day (after clearing it with Sifu Leung) - the guy came away saying "this old man has the real art". He literally could not lay a finger on Henry, whereas Sifu Leung tossed him about like a toy.
Sifu Leung wrote a letter of introduction for me to the Wing Chun community - it was eye opening for me- everywhere I went the (generally older) sifu would read the note, have a expression that showed that they not only knew Sifu Leung but had great respect for his skills, and then be very open and somewhat deferential to me as a guest.
Also in New York was Lam Sang (Lam Wingfei). I met him in Taiwan while he was in retirement. He and Sifu Leung knew each other well, and considered each other as equals. Master Lam demonstrated some similar skills, and was the first person to show me that he could cause areas of his torso to well up into 1 or 2 cm mounds, which he could move at will. He also had qinggong.
Y.C. Wong in San Francisco has far higher level internal than most people realize (and higher than most "internal" martial artists I've seen). Touching him while he is doing his Hung Gar is like having a road map to control of fine muscle groups.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 9:07pm
1 or 2 cm mounds? That is pretty small - is this the so-called moving of dantian around? Or something else?
Those Southern stylists do seem "internal" to me...
Posted by: HopGarSanSau Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 9:18pm
that's amazing. thanks.
are there any other teachers of his "fut sao wing chun" from his generation? from what i know, it used to be called something else
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 9:23pm
They were about the diameter of a nickel, maybe a bit larger, and raised. He called them rouqiu, literally "muscle balls". He said they were concentrations of qi under the skin. Master Hu Jiemin of Lohan Shaolin had the same skills. Speaking of whom - his neigong was incredible. His body would expand and contract visibly. Once he showed me a "kip up" unlike anything I had ever seen - he lay on the ground on his back, raised his feet about six inches off the ground. A wave seemed to run through his body, and without bending his knees he was suddenly standing upright.
I used to go visit the abbot Heng Yueh at Muzhi mountain outside of Taipei - he was just over 100 years old when I met him. He was still practicing Lohan kung fu. When he moved he too seemed to expand and contract visibly - his forearm would swell to half again its normal size, and his mid forearm to his fingertips would turn quite red.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 9:27pm
I believe Sifu Leung mentioned someone - James Cama would know better than I would. Sifu Leung did tell me that he thought highly of Peng Nam and Cen Neng.
Posted by: onyomi Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 10:28pm
on May 4th, 2008, 9:23pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
I used to go visit the abbot Heng Yueh at Muzhi mountain outside of Taipei - he was just over 100 years old when I met him. He was still practicing Lohan kung fu. When he moved he too seemed to expand and contract visibly - his forearm would swell to half again its normal size, and his mid forearm to his fingertips would turn quite red.
That sounds like a great goal to aim for. I've noticed since practicing qigong for a few years that now my whole torso and even shoulders and upper thighs expand and contract much more noticeably when I breath. I only hope one day it can expand to so visibly include my whole body like that.
Posted by: Andy_S Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 11:00pm
Hmmm, if anyone else came up with a thread like this, it'd be BTDT, but in this case...
Ken:
You have obviously met some very interesting gents in your time. So....seeing as we are speaking of 'internal' here....have you come across any Taiji men you thought were wickdely good? I recall an article you wrote in IKF maybe 10 years ago in which you mentioned a Chen player you had been impressed with....?
Moreover, most of the gents on your list were in US or Taiwan. Nobody on the mainland?
Also, Park Bok-nam has a mixed rep, but I think you studied Bagua with him at one point....? I seem to recall you saying you ditched it as it didn't give you anything you didn't already have from HsingI. (And some do say that Park's Bagua is very HsingI-ish). Would be interested to hear an informed opinion on the man.
Oh, and what light skills, exactly, did Leung demonstrate? Was this the "jumping over the head" skill? Did any of his students get it?
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 4th, 2008, 11:56pm
on May 4th, 2008, 11:00pm, Andy_S wrote:
Hmmm, if anyone else came up with a thread like this, it'd be BTDT, but in this case...
A man made for public life and authority never takes account of personalities; he only takes account of things, of their weight and their conseqences.
Posted by: Formosa Neijia Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 12:17am
on May 4th, 2008, 11:56pm, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
A man made for public life and authority never takes account of personalities; he only takes account of things, of their weight and their consequences.
Damn, that's deep.
Dave C.
Posted by: Arthur Ian Wellesley Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 12:40am
I bet Graham has been itching to use that one Grin
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 4:41am
RE: Master Park - as you noted, his training was not something I felt I needed to pursue.
Henry demonstrated various kinds of lightness skill. One which comes to mind - we were at his studio on 38th street - he was having some trouble with the electrical lines. Access was through a roof panel. Ken Delves and I offered to get a ladder - Henry just grinned and very lightly jumped up onto a decorative handrail (by the front steps of the lobby) that was about waist height to me- it was about an inch wide at best and flimsy - he landed and worked overhead as if he were on solid ground. Ken and I just gaped.
Funny you should mention Taiji - a few, but most of them had extensive training in other arts.
I did not spend enough time on the mainland to get into the martial arts community - although I did meet a couple who demonstrated real, high level skill when I was there.
Master Qian Zhaohong, whom I met here, in the states, has very high level skill - but shows only the tip of the iceberg.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 4:44am
Getting back on track though- I started out with what I see as (at a basic level) the internal component of CMA. How do you see it?
Posted by: Walter_Joyce Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 5:01am
I pretty much agree with what you use as a definition as internal skills.
The question becomes, how do you achieve these skills.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 5:26am
Walter:
Bingo. And there's the rub.
There are, in my opinion, several prerequisites. First, you have to be aware that these skills exist. Second, you need to find a teacher who has these skills and is both willing and able to teach them. Third, he or she must allow you to touch their body when they are demonstrating or explaining these skills so that you have a clue as to what they are doing. Next, they must be able to correct you in a clear manner. Then you need to spend time, sweat, and brain power to train and figure out what your body is doing and what it should be doing. And be prepared to be told you are doing it wrong and start over.
For each skill and level of skill it is my experience that there are more and less efficient ways of training, and that good training is specific. Untraining is a part of the process, and the entire process can be like peeling the layers of an onion.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 5:46am
i also agree with your definition and can say that concious control of the musculature is an amazing and fascinating pursuit, regardless of martial applicability, the matrixing of ones whole self is an incredible pursuit for health and performance....i have found much outside of martial arts to help in my pursuit of whole body awareness.....in fact often the martial focus can get in teh way of taking the time to develop things that do not seem immediately applicable in that format.
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 6:20am
Regarding body awareness and concious control of the musculature, i read a great Systema article about cold water dousing. It said that it did wonders to body sensitivity and awareness.
Ken,
Contraction and expansion, thats where the money is. Ive been able to take out some moves that belong to some of our xingyi forms, that contain a fairly big expantion and contraction, and train them alone with this in mind. Start big and then getting it as small as i can, without loosing connection.
Have you done this with your xingyi or do you train it with other specific methods?
Posted by: C.J.W. Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 6:42am
on May 4th, 2008, 8:37pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
Internal, to me, is not a matter of system or style. It is a matter of body mechanics and related concepts. I believe many people confuse "soft" and "relaxed" with internal skills. I believe there are many Taiji and Bagua and similar players of Chinese martial arts who are soft and relaxed but have no internal skills to speak of.
In my experience, internal skill consists of having conscious control over muscle groups not generally thought of as being under conscious control, and being able to coordinate them in a fashion that is not, on the face of it, "natural". An example would be compression, or "suojing". Regardless of what a system calls it, this is the contraction of the muscles normally engaged in maintaining erect posture, as well as the intercostals and, at a more advanced stage, the stabilizing muscles at all of the joints in the kinetic chain under consideration. "Soft" and "hard" and "relaxed" don't really have anything to do with this picture. Cooked noodles are soft, and drunks are relaxed, but neither one is an example of internal training.
Completely agreed.
Too many people misinterpret the ideas of "relaxation" and "not using muscle" found in Taiji classics and exalt them as the epitome of IMA. Anatomically speaking, whenever our bodies move, there's always muscle contraction. If we were really completely "relaxed" and "not using muscle," we'd be lying in bed like vegetables.
It's a matter of utilizing muscles differently.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 7:02am
Jose:
Yes, do pretty much what you are doing - train each skill and muscle group discretely with specific exercises, then train them within the context of the moves from the system (tongbei or xingyi). Master Zhang had some interesting equipment, and my students and other teachers have shown me other equipment/drills/concepts that have been of great value in this regard.
BTW I have found Pilates to be of tremendous help - the equipment (reformer, cadillac) does not allow you to cheat.
Posted by: Walter_Joyce Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 7:29am
Ken,
I want to add that I find this discussion helpful in that I misunderstood your position. When a lot of posting was going on in my early days here I thought you were saying that there was no difference between internal and external.
In light of what you have posted now I am taking this to mean that in a variety of arts, some labeled internal, some labeled external, there are practices that help one to develop the sensitivity and abilities that lead to what has become classified as internal arts.
Am I correct in this understanding?
Walter
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 7:38am
Walter:
Yes, that is exactly what I meant- and why I have mentioned that some of the best "internal" skills I have seen were demonstrated by masters who were teachers of arts not popularly thought of (in the West) as Internal.
Posted by: Arthur Ian Wellesley Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 7:39am
on May 5th, 2008, 6:20am, Jose Alb wrote:
Regarding body awareness and concious control of the musculature, i read a great Systema article about cold water dousing. It said that it did wonders to body sensitivity and awareness.
That was most likely Kevin Secours:
http://montrealsystema.com/Articles.html
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 7:48am
Ian, thats the one.
Posted by: Arthur Ian Wellesley Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 8:00am
Yes, it's great for body sensitivity.
Don't know about awareness, though.
I totally burned my head today. In a drunken stupour. Was having a shower, wanted some icy cold water, turned the faucet the wrong way and got scalding hot liquid hell instead. It took a second to register. I screamed and almost fell out the tub. haha
Be careful - home can kill you.
Posted by: kenneth_delves Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 8:48am
I'd like to add to Ken's list as far as requirements. One has to have a good level of neigong and Qigong to achieve a higher level,. Unfortunately this area has been associated with 'magical' practices involving tricks, but a level of Qigong implies you are able to put your 'mind' at various points in the body, control local muscles, change the EM field and even project an EM field. The training involves visualization, several types of breathing standing and physical movement.
Yes Henry was a phenom, if you crossed hands with him you couldnt find his center it was like hunting a ghost and at 5 ft nothing he could dominate a much larger person
Posted by: bailewen Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 9:18am
on May 4th, 2008, 8:58pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
Y.C. Wong in San Francisco has far higher level internal than most people realize (and higher than most "internal" martial artists I've seen). Touching him while he is doing his Hung Gar is like having a road map to control of fine muscle groups.
Heck. That's where I originally got my bagua from.
I learned (and then forgot) his Guangping Yang taiji form too at one point. Too much time in China without corrections and eventually I just switched over to my current style.
Posted by: Ron_Panunto Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 9:44am
While it's certainly true that a Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Karate adept can develop internal skills, it seems to me that the generally accepted internal systems like taiji, xingyi, bagua and liu ho ba fa offer students a more direct path to those internal skills since they already emphasize body awareness, relaxation, connectedness, etc. These skills are not necessarily emphasized in the so-called external arts, so students of these arts may be facing an uphill battle, or at least may have to do a lot of retraining in order to master the internal skills.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 9:53am
Ron:
I think it really depends on the teacher - this is what I was saying before to Walter - in the States the view of CMA is pretty rigid - an art is either internal or external. Not so in China (and the closed door Chinatown schools). Real Hung Gar is very much about developing the same skills (Lam Jo, Sifu Wong's teacher, has an incredibly high level of internal). Moreover if we accept the Shaolin link to Xinyi and Taji, it becomes clear that it is not a matter of which art, but how completely its taught. I dare say that an awful lot of Taiji teachers haven't a clue to the internal, whereas most white Crane teachers I've met do.
I cannot speak for Karate - I am just not familiar with it. From what I have seen though it is strictly based on the strength and speed of the extremities.
Posted by: Andy_S Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 9:54am
What Ken #2 (Delves) notes is, I think, on the damn money. Ability to put your awareness into certain parts of the body where it normally isn't. And if that is what Ken #1 is talking about, fine.
However, I would say that the example Ken #1 (Fish) applies (of rib power) is pretty HsingI specific. HsingI (and maybe Tongbei...?) uses a lot of vertical power, I believe. IME, Bagua and Taiji, while containing this component, do not use it as extensively as HsingI; horizontal waist movement may be more important there.
To take the discussion beyond shenfa and into application:
IMHO, "internal" martials arts have sensitivity practices that allow the practitioner to flow and change their technique, mid-gear. So, unlike some MA, it is not a case of powering through when applying a strike, putting on a lock or executing a throw, but - when faced with resistance - changing the direction of the strike, changing the angle of the lock, or reversing the throw.
It is this which makes good IMA look effortless.
FYI and FWIW:
I have been cold dousing every single morning for a year or two now, and while I belive it highly beneficial - it certainly fortifies the mind on a cold day, wakes you the hell up, and I have not suffered a single cold in the time I have been doing it - I do not believe it has anything to do with what we are discussing here (ie what IMA means)
Posted by: Ron_Panunto Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 9:57am
on May 5th, 2008, 8:48am, kenneth_delves wrote:
I'd like to add to Ken's list as far as requirements. One has to have a good level of neigong and Qigong to achieve a higher level,. Unfortunately this area has been associated with 'magical' practices involving tricks, but a level of Qigong implies you are able to put your 'mind' at various points in the body, control local muscles, change the EM field and even project an EM field. The training involves visualization, several types of breathing standing and physical movement.
Yes Henry was a phenom, if you crossed hands with him you couldnt find his center it was like hunting a ghost and at 5 ft nothing he could dominate a much larger person
I agree with you on everything except the EM fields Ken. As a life long practicing electrical engineer I have done considerable work on EM fields, and as far as I know, humans have no mechanisms, nor can they develop any mechanisms, for producing, changing, or sensing EM fields. If you know of any peer-reviewed scientific proof of this, I would love to know about it. Would you know what the frequencies of these fields would be in Hertz, their incident energy in milliWatts/square centimeter, and their strength in milliGauss? I have EMF meters in my lab and would just love to test someone with these skills.
Posted by: Dale Dugas Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 10:10am
on May 4th, 2008, 8:37pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
Internal, to me, is not a matter of system or style. It is a matter of body mechanics and related concepts. I believe many people confuse "soft" and "relaxed" with internal skills. I believe there are many Taiji and Bagua and similar players of Chinese martial arts who are soft and relaxed but have no internal skills to speak of.
In my experience, internal skill consists of having conscious control over muscle groups not generally thought of as being under conscious control, and being able to coordinate them in a fashion that is not, on the face of it, "natural". An example would be compression, or "suojing". Regardless of what a system calls it, this is the contraction of the muscles normally engaged in maintaining erect posture, as well as the intercostals and, at a more advanced stage, the stabilizing muscles at all of the joints in the kinetic chain under consideration. "Soft" and "hard" and "relaxed" don't really have anything to do with this picture. Cooked noodles are soft, and drunks are relaxed, but neither one is an example of internal training.
Excellent post Shifu Fish.
Spot on!!
I think it takes long and hard work looking at ones structure and learning to first train it as parts and learn to integrate as a whole.
Posted by: TaoBoxer Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 11:16am
I agree with Mr. Fish's statement regarding the rigid and ridiculous notions of Internal and External in the US.
I dont feel like hard/soft has anything to do with Internal or External. My current position runs somthing a long the lines that Internal and External refer to a starting point in your training method. External schools tend to work skin, muscle, tendon, ligament, bone, and marrow, saving specific Qi cultivation for last. Internal schools tend to reverse the process. The goal however is to arrive in the same place.
I think one of the highest Internal players I have met was Col. YW Chang, student of Chen Pan Ling. He did things not readily explainable. Other than him, my current Yi Quan teacher has shown me things quite far beyond the reach of the typical "kung fu teacher."
As one of my greatest influences in kung fu told me "Theory is theory, but boxing is boxing." It's great to have a lot of ideas, but the key is to be able to use it.
Lewitt
Posted by: johnwang Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 11:50am
If we look at CMA from the angle of application then the word "internal" and "external" will have very little meaning. "Internal" and "external" are like different programming language such as Java and C++. They may have different syntax but when the product is finished and used by the customers, the customers won't be able to tell whether that program was written by Java or C++.
Most of the time when "internal" style generate Jin, it's linear and one Jin only. External style such as SC, sometime will need to generate 5 Jins at the same time. So I don't know which style is more "internal".
The SC "leg twisting" will require the following 8 Jins to work at the same time.
- Embrace
- Twist
- Press down,
- Jump,
- Kick out,
- Rotate,
- Flip,
- Face change.
The "external" style may have more complex Jin generation then the "internal" style.
Posted by: C.J.W. Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 12:24pm
on May 5th, 2008, 9:44am, Ron_Panunto wrote:
While it's certainly true that a Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Karate adept can develop internal skills, it seems to me that the generally accepted internal systems like taiji, xingyi, bagua and liu ho ba fa offer students a more direct path to those internal skills since they already emphasize body awareness, relaxation, connectedness, etc. These skills are not necessarily emphasized in the so-called external arts, so students of these arts may be facing an uphill battle, or at least may have to do a lot of retraining in order to master the internal skills.
Not really.
Take Southern CMA systems for example, they are usually regarded as "hard," "rigid," and "external" due to the forms's appearances, which isn't true at all.
Southern systems are actually more internal than Taiji, Xinyi, and Bagua at beginning stages. Specific breathing and dynamic tension exercises designed to build up internal muscle/fascia/tendon are often incorporated in the styles' most basic forms (i.e. Sanchin) and taught to beginners.
It's a more no-nonsense and practical approach to acquire internal skills comparing to the ones found in the 3 internal styles because the students won't be bothered with ideas about relaxing and staying soft, which, in my opinion, can be misleading and confusing to beginners.
Posted by: Ron_Panunto Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 12:48pm
on May 5th, 2008, 12:24pm, C.J.W. wrote:
Southern systems are actually more internal than Taiji, Xinyi, and Bagua at beginning stages. Specific breathing and dynamic tension exercises designed to build up internal muscle/fascia/tendon are often incorporated in the styles' most basic forms (i.e. Sanchin) and taught to beginners.
I may be wrong, but when I think internal, I think of "relaxed extension" rather than "dynamic tension." It always looks like the blood pressure of a Sanchin player is going through the roof.
Posted by: Kevin_Wallbridge Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 12:52pm
I pretty much disagree with everybody on this. While I think that Ken's defintion and the various shades that have been added to it explain how external training can also lead to internal mechanics, it is still Waidan that is being discussed.
There seems to be a tacit acceptance of Cartesian dualism in these definitions. The body one thing and the mind is another. Is conscious control enough to define internal?
The mechanics is one thing. In fact I would say that the starting point of internal work has been clearly stated. The process of overcoming issues surrounding stabalization of kinetic chains and active disengagement through cascades of relaxation are necessary for there to be the fertile ground for internal work to take place. However, its like building a magic gateway and never bothering to step through it.
Emotional habits, personal egoistic mythologies, issues that arise from existential concern and fundamental metaphysical assumptions about what is real, all contribute to distortions that can be propagated through the tissue. Internal mechanics is amazing to experience, yet internal alchemy can shake you in your clinging to the earth.
Is it enough to have the power to apply killing force? How can we talk of Neidan and not address issues of character and martial virtue. I don't mean the Confucian pablum of "respect your teacher," I mean letting the work affect how you actually behave in the world as a moral being.
I've met plenty of accomplished internal practitioners who could rip me a new one, yet I have met far fewer whose human development touched me at my core.
I agree that "it is not a matter of system or style" but I do not agree that it merely an issue of the meat. If we only apply the mind in a downward direction to the Jing/essence we can achieve what is beyond most people's ability. However, if the pure potential of the Jing does not then arise to affect the mind just as profoundly, then I say it is still Waidan. Great Waidan. High level Waidan. Only Waidan.
If we are going to bother with these anachronistic practices should they serve some real end? Self defence? Bullets trump bengquan. Athletic achievement? Do MMA and don't bother with the esoteric attempts at fangsong ziran. Health? Do the martial skills really do anything more than a good gym routine? How many masters with great skills have died no later than the average guy?
I used to care if I could use it for real. What a masturbatory fantasy that was. Now I only try to be better man
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 1:17pm
I think there comes a point when you KNOW you can use it for real. Once you pass that you can start to focus on other things. I know that right now I feel like that is something I need to pass. I have had people with years of military, martial arts, and street fighting experience tell me that they wouldn't want to fight me. Unfortunately that doesn't equate to knowing. In some cases your teacher or someone else can know you better than you know yourself, because they have been there and know what happens there and know what you can do, even if you don't. Until you experience it for yourself you will never get rid of your doubt that your shit won't work. As long as that doubt is there how can you focus on the very large world beyond simply winning a fight?
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 1:57pm
Kevin, you have touched the very depths of the bottomless chasm which i call my soul.
Im going to stand up from my work space and walk around for a bit. Maybe drink some melon juice later.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:06pm
"I used to care if I could use it for real. What a masturbatory fantasy that was. Now I only try to be better man"
I am right there with you Kevin...kudos to you for saying it!!
Posted by: Kevin_Wallbridge Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:07pm
DT, I would say that the focus on winning the fight is one of things in the way of surpassing the doubt. It goes back to Ken's first point about relaxed. Is the ego relaxed? Does it require proof to be relaxed? Can the ego ever be sure if there are still untouched opponents still walking the Earth?
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:12pm
"not knowing is the fundamental condition of life"
Posted by: Ron_Panunto Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:14pm
on May 5th, 2008, 12:52pm, Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:
I pretty much disagree with everybody on this.
Is it enough to have the power to apply killing force? How can we talk of Neidan and not address issues of character and martial virtue. I don't mean the Confucian pablum of "respect your teacher," I mean letting the work affect how you actually behave in the world as a moral being.
If we are going to bother with these anachronistic practices should they serve some real end? Self defence? Bullets trump bengquan. Athletic achievement? Do MMA and don't bother with the esoteric attempts at fangsong ziran. Health? Do the martial skills really do anything more than a good gym routine? How many masters with great skills have died no later than the average guy?
I used to care if I could use it for real. What a masturbatory fantasy that was. Now I only try to be better man
So why do you have to go to all the trouble of studying a martial art to be a better person? Most of the people I know are good people and they don't study martial arts. And don't forget that many of the past masters who we emulate were killers.
Posted by: Bär Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:21pm
Does following a strictly non-martial path of qigong, meditation, etc... lead to the same places that a martial practice does?
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:30pm
Let me toss this one into the discussion:
It's interesting to note that nobody considers the strategy of the art as part of a definition of 'internal'.
What if an 'internal guy' (if such a thing exists) proceeds to use his 'internal body method' (tm) that he has developed over long and arduous periods of self examination, hands on correction, learning to exert conscious control over muscle groups, touching up teachers, and generally being told he's crap and starting again, to hard block the attacks from his opponent, using his force directly against his attacker. Is he still an internal guy? And what, like Mr Wang points us towards, really makes him (or her) any different from somebody just hard blocking without all the complicated body method?
Any takers?
Posted by: Ron_Panunto Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:36pm
on May 5th, 2008, 2:21pm, Bär wrote:
Does following a strictly non-martial path of qigong, meditation, etc... lead to the same places that a martial practice does?
No - you won't be able to defend yourself.
Posted by: Qiphlow Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:48pm
on May 5th, 2008, 2:21pm, Bär wrote:
Does following a strictly non-martial path of qigong, meditation, etc... lead to the same places that a martial practice does?
depends. are you trying to cultivate the next step in your evolution as a human, or merely trying to learn how to be the most efficient and deadly killer on the planet?
Posted by: Bär Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 2:53pm
on May 5th, 2008, 2:36pm, Ron_Panunto wrote:
No - you won't be able to defend yourself.
Grin Yeah ok, I'll fix the code.
Will the sole practice of qigong, etc... lead to the same non-martial benefits of martial practice in a similar fashion and timeframe? Does "deep" IMA practice have something beyond fancy fighting skills with "spiritual" practice tacked on?
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 3:11pm
I really liked Kevin's post. Hes right....but if he is, then half of all the IMA legends that we have had in the past, and have now, were just doing "high level Waidan".
Guys like Xue Dian, for example.
So, even though he makes a valid point, it really depends on the eyes one chooses to look at the issue.
And for gods sake, somebody toss napoleon a cookie. Hes getting lonely in Saint Helena.
Posted by: kenneth_delves Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 3:11pm
Ron
I can appreciate your scepticism. My major was in Physics and I am an Engineer, like many in my profession I do not have any time for air fairy notions.When I first experienced projected energy I didnt believe it either, I thought it was some kind of hypnotic suggestion, so I spent many years learning it. The field is confused by people who use trickery but it does exist, I can do it. The fields I suspect are very small as are the body's fields and would need a SQUID to detect them.
The projected energy is almost a byproduct of increased energy in the body.
Andy brings up a good point that internal MA practitioners can change with the flow but this is a direct result of the nature of the art insofar as the shock power is applied at will, not as a result of increased speed or momentum
Posted by: cdobe Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 3:41pm
on May 5th, 2008, 3:11pm, kenneth_delves wrote:
Ron
I can appreciate your scepticism. My major was in Physics and I am an Engineer, like many in my profession I do not have any time for air fairy notions.When I first experienced projected energy I didnt believe it either, I thought it was some kind of hypnotic suggestion, so I spent many years learning it. The field is confused by people who use trickery but it does exist, I can do it. The fields I suspect are very small as are the body's fields and would need a SQUID to detect them.
The projected energy is almost a byproduct of increased energy in the body.
Andy brings up a good point that internal MA practitioners can change with the flow but this is a direct result of the nature of the art insofar as the shock power is applied at will, not as a result of increased speed or momentum
Hi Kenneth,
if the fields are so small that you need a SQUID to detect them, how can they have an effect on a much larger scale, like when someone moves you by "projecting energy"?
I'ld say hypnotic suggestion is a very plausible explanation.
Chris
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 3:45pm
Graham:
I don't think that blocking hard or soft is relevant to whether one has internal skill - in fact if ones internal skill is good and alignment is proper, one can block "hard" and the person being blocked feels as though he has struck a steel post, although the blocker appears relaxed.
One of the best Chen style teachers I met could be either "hard" or "soft" in his approach - one really got an appreciation for the "steel wrapped in cotton" analogy. What he was not was rigid.
Master Qian has demonstrated this both from a blocking and striking standpoint, as has just about every other teacher I have listed.
As for spiritual development - that was not the point I was making with this thread - I was attempting to share my definition of the physical components of internal training.
Regarding human electrical fields - a search on the Journal of Electrical Medicine might be informative. Also human-machine interface anomalies.
Posted by: JRobS Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 4:06pm
on May 5th, 2008, 12:48pm, Ron_Panunto wrote:
I may be wrong, but when I think internal, I think of "relaxed extension" rather than "dynamic tension." It always looks like the blood pressure of a Sanchin player is going through the roof.
Depends on the Sanchin being performed and the way it was taught really. Same goes for Iron wire in my experience.
Posted by: C.J.W. Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 10:34pm
on May 5th, 2008, 3:45pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
Graham:
I don't think that blocking hard or soft is relevant to whether one has internal skill - in fact if ones internal skill is good and alignment is proper, one can block "hard" and the person being blocked feels as though he has struck a steel post, although the blocker appears relaxed.
Agreed once again.
For someone who has sufficiently trained the deep muscle, tendon/fascia, connective tissue around joints, and learned how to coordinate and utilize them for fighting purposes, a strike that feels like a ton of bricks to the opponent may feel quite "relaxed" for him because he's simply maintaining his resilient structure by "tightening the screws" in the body.
When the opponent hits him, it's actually the opponent who's getting hit.
This is where, I believe, the idea of using relaxation and not tension comes from. They can't be simply looked at as being hard or soft.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 5th, 2008, 11:22pm
Force is the law of animals, men are ruled by conviction.
Posted by: Formosa Neijia Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:19am
on May 5th, 2008, 8:48am, kenneth_delves wrote:
I'd like to add to Ken's list as far as requirements. One has to have a good level of neigong and Qigong to achieve a higher level,. Unfortunately this area has been associated with 'magical' practices involving tricks, but a level of Qigong implies you are able to put your 'mind' at various points in the body, control local muscles, change the EM field and even project an EM field. The training involves visualization, several types of breathing standing and physical movement.
This is what I've been taught makes your practice internal. It goes far beyond body usage/shenfa requirements. The addition of the other mental and spiritual parts of the qi paradigm as mentioned above changes things quite a bit, although it can be overwhelming at times.
As to relaxation, I would say it's a necessary but not by itself sufficient condition for internal strength.
Dave C.
Posted by: wiesiek Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 3:45am
on May 5th, 2008, 2:21pm, Bär wrote:
Does following a strictly non-martial path of qigong, meditation, etc... lead to the same places that a martial practice does?
They will became one...
eventualy
Wink
i worked last 15 years with non-martial path of qigong,
and
right now i feel a need for more martial oriented forms
to suplement my non-martial path .
however
my previous extensive judo/karate backround may ring this bell.
Cheesy
PS
i just read u 2nd post , and answer is:
YES
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:36am
on May 5th, 2008, 2:48pm, Qiphlow wrote:
depends. are you trying to cultivate the next step in your evolution as a human, or merely trying to learn how to be the most efficient and deadly killer on the planet?
I see no reason why you can't do both. As far as Ron's point about knowing plenty of good people who aren't martial artists, martial arts isn't the only way to become a better person or to tread a spiritual path, but IMO it is the most fun way I have come across.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:41am
i have known plenty of commercial fisherman that would beat the living shit out of most martial artist I have known, so martial arts is not really the best way to learn to fight...live a hard life and fight alot who needs all the movement, theory or speculation
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:45am
on May 5th, 2008, 2:07pm, Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:
DT, I would say that the focus on winning the fight is one of things in the way of surpassing the doubt. It goes back to Ken's first point about relaxed. Is the ego relaxed? Does it require proof to be relaxed? Can the ego ever be sure if there are still untouched opponents still walking the Earth?
To quote my favorite band, "go beyond the ego". Ego gets in the way, maybe my feeling that I need to prove to myself that my shit does work is my ego getting in the way. I guess I won't know until I try though. Which is why I want to do San shou and shuai jiao tournies. I feel that the competitive environment can give you the confirmation and knowlegde that you actually know what you are doing, and that self confidence that comes with that.
Posted by: Deus Trismegistus Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:48am
on May 6th, 2008, 2:19am, Formosa Neijia wrote:
This is what I've been taught makes your practice internal. It goes far beyond body usage/shenfa requirements. The addition of the other mental and spiritual parts of the qi paradigm as mentioned above changes things quite a bit, although it can be overwhelming at times.
As to relaxation, I would say it's a necessary but not by itself sufficient condition for internal strength.
Dave C.
I personally think that learning to relax the body and mind are the first step to developing actual internal ability. Its a hard one and I am still working on it. What lies beyond that I don't know, I do know that not everything I have felt can be explained from pure body mechanics and shen fa and relaxation.
Posted by: C.J.W. Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:10am
on May 6th, 2008, 7:41am, 8gua wrote:
i have known plenty of commercial fisherman that would beat the living shit out of most martial artist I have known, so martial arts is not really the best way to learn to fight...live a hard life and fight alot who needs all the movement, theory or speculation
I wouldn't be surprised.
Imagine having to maintain your balance on the ship deck out at sea when waves are high and perform heavy manual labor for hours on a daily basis - it's hardcore whole-body conditioning as well as stability/root/balance training.
They probably have better connected internal strength than most martial artists who focus only on forms and sparring.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:22am
on May 6th, 2008, 8:10am, C.J.W. wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised.
Imagine having to maintain your balance on the ship deck out at sea when waves are high and perform heavy manual labor for hours on a daily basis - it's hardcore whole-body conditioning as well as stability/root/balance training.
They probably have better connected internal strength than most martial artists who focus only on forms and sparring.
Same with people who work in 'construction' (as you guys call it). Builders we call 'em.
However, I've also never met an old builder who didn't have a really bad back of some kind.
Posted by: Qiphlow Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:23am
on May 6th, 2008, 7:36am, Deus Trismegistus wrote:
I see no reason why you can't do both. As far as Ron's point about knowing plenty of good people who aren't martial artists, martial arts isn't the only way to become a better person or to tread a spiritual path, but IMO it is the most fun way I have come across.
true, one can use anything as a means to cultivation, really. i would think that the martial aspect would become kind of meaningless at a certain point in cultivation, though. but then again, i'm just speculating.
Posted by: Brett Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:33am
Mr. Fish and Mr. Delves, where would breathwork fit into your ideals of internal? Is it a means to access those muscles, or is it something else, or both?
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:44am
Brett, you didnt ask me...but i think its both. A means to Access them, to train them, and to use them.
Breath coordination is essential for muscle control. Like contraction improved by exhaling, for example, i think.
I would be interested in Ken's response to this, also.
Posted by: 8gua Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:51am
although I also wasn't asked i will give my .2 breath leads into, opens and strengthens those difficult to feel connections...it is a huge piece inmho
Posted by: Brett Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:54am
I like hearing from you all as well. Grin
Posted by: Billy_K. Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:15am
on May 6th, 2008, 7:41am, 8gua wrote:
i have known plenty of commercial fisherman that would beat the living shit out of most martial artist I have known, so martial arts is not really the best way to learn to fight...live a hard life and fight alot who needs all the movement, theory or speculation
i don`t think so, or else people around the world would've sent their fishermen and construction workers to war instead of their warriors.
however, hard physical work may have take the place of modern physical training in those times for said warriors.
Posted by: Buddy Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:35am
I'll chime in before the two worthys respond. I often use the phrase "Breathe into your...(insert body part)" Obviously you can only breathe into your lungs. But the idea of breathing into some other area teaches you how to use the intention for conscious control.
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:39pm
Breathing is an entire subject unto itself. Broad topic touching on a number of areas, from focus to power to mental cultivation, qi, and spiritual development. Not to mention getting air into our lungs....
I still remember the answer a friend of mine gave when a student asked "what about breathing?"
"Highly recommended. Much better than not breathing."
Anyway, Buddy touched on one of the focus techniques (used in just about every facet of breath work at the beginning stage - not just Martial Arts - think Yoga, Pilates, psychoanalysis). And I agree with Ken, Dave C., and CJW on the need for training qi - an essential part of every Chinese martial art.
My view is that you must first train the prerequisites (the mechanics, alignment, focus etc) in order to have the proper container or vessel for whatever the heck qigong produces - you wouldn't pump high pressure water through rusty leaky pipes and expect them to remain intact.
How does breathwork fit in? Well, in my opinion, at its most basic level it allows for a shift of focus in movement - once you have trained just the movement working on coordinating the breathing allows the body to play out its programming.
It can be a means for focusing beyond the body, and a tool for visualization.
While I do not believe that "qi" is air, breath work allows some alteration of autonomic processes, and brings about an elevation of some physiologic responses which are usually not under conscious control (endocrine, vasodilitation/constiction, muscle contraction) resulting in enhanced performance, both physical and mental.
I also believe that while "energy" work is aided by focused breath work, it is not necessary for qi development - some kinds of movement work direct the qi and produce very high level results (the focus is on the movement or beyond the body, and the breathing takes care of itself, following the motion).
KJF
Posted by: kenneth_delves Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:12pm
I can add little to Ken#1's comments except my subjective experience which is the linking of mind[brain] and action becomes one, for example in Pichuan you think 'down' and the hand immediately has a downward intent and power, this is, as far as I can determine, a direct result of specific breathing and visualization techniques
Posted by: Buddy Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:12pm
"Highly recommended. Much better than not breathing."
Ima have to steal this one. Grin
Posted by: Interloper Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 6:57pm
on May 6th, 2008, 12:39pm, kenneth_fish wrote:
How does breathwork fit in? Well, in my opinion, at its most basic level it allows for a shift of focus in movement - once you have trained just the movement working on coordinating the breathing allows the body to play out its programming.
It can be a means for focusing beyond the body, and a tool for visualization.
[snippage]
Besides the need for 0-sub-2, I see breathwork as being useful for something a lot more basic, martial, and a lot less esoteric than all the good visualization and qi stuff: You can use it to expand your body physically (mechanically) and thus extend your reach and connective penetration into your opponent.