Yang family

[D_Glenn]

Fall as translated means the same as alright to get off
Disembark is another word we can use
We take away weight in this case the finest amount we can imagine
As with a feather landing
This goes along with the bird trying to leave the hand analogy or the silk being ripped in the sword fight

I can’t quite understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that the insect (the fly) is already on your skin, but through the use of your Taijiquan that it cannot fly away?

[Steve James]

Ask the bagua and xingyi guys what they'd do. Grabbing happens all the time in competitive push hands.

Afa grabbing, meh, "na" was always translated as "grab" for me (as in hua, na, da, fa). There's also different ways to "grab" (from monkey fingers, to tiger's mouth, and almost anytime the hand closes).

I'd also argue that when done correctly, every tcc movement is anti-grab. Anyway, every lock has a key.

[wayne hansen]

John I just think to grab is low level
Good wrestlers don't grab they secure

[wayne hansen]

Fall as translated means the same as alright to get off
Disembark is another word we can use
We take away weight in this case the finest amount we can imagine
As with a feather landing
This goes along with the bird trying to leave the hand analogy or the silk being ripped in the sword fight

I can’t quite understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that the insect (the fly) is already on your skin, but through the use of your Taijiquan that it cannot fly away?

Half right it is on you but when it departs you adjust to the change in weight
Just like when the feather lands you adjust to the change in weight
Not that I have met anyone that subtle

[D_Glenn]

In Baguazhang grabbing is a Yang masculine technique, meaning it results in a more violent reaction, and is therefore something that requires more strength and determination from yourself. Most of Baguazhang’s stuff is of a Yin nature. Our Qin (seize/ lock) techniques are not really grabbing as they only work well if the opponent isn’t aware that he’s being locked until it’s too late. So the forearms are used like hands to control and get the initial lock set up, then the grasp come second.

[johnwang]

John I just think to grab is low level
Good wrestlers don't grab they secure

IMO, push is low level skill (kid's game).

If you can control your opponent's

- leading arm (elbow joint), you have won 60% already.
- back arm (wrist joint), you have won 80% already.

The back arm control is much harder than the leading arm control because it's further away. If you can pull your opponent's back arm and sweep his leading leg, you can take your opponent down effortless.

[Steve James]

Grab is just (Anglo)-Saxon. Seize is French. Secure is Middle English. They're not the same, but the ME one sounds more sophisticated.

Otoh, Na is Chinese. To argue there's no na in tcc is to say there's no qinna. It's true that there's very little small joint manipulation is most tcc forms (ime). However, both Lift Hands and Play Guitar are almost explicitly large joint manipulation. Yeah, it's low level. Then again, I guess there are many other applications for those movements.

Sorry it's Chen, but good enough as an example.

[johnwang]

John I just think to grab is low level

From a Yang Taiji guy's point of view,

- A punch to the face is low level.
- A kick to the chest is low level.
- A lock on the arm is low level
- A throw on the ground is low level.

Is Yang Taiji still a combat art?

[windwalker]

IMO nothing to do with level...

more to do with the theory and attending practice to make it a reality..

Used to practice with Mr Lai's group...one day were going over what they called the 1,2,3 Gou (Hooking/Deflecting), Lou (Grasping), Cai (Pulling).

Due to my taiji back ground, my tendency was to go with the flow of the force which had the effect of unbalancing the other person.

Mr Lai came over and said "no, that's not the way to do it.."
Do it this way, as he demoed on me....

Kinda surprised at the ignoring of the flow, which meant that those practicing depended on what was called the "beat" ie timing of the movement series to make it work...
Something among other things, why mantis wasn't for me, despite a lot of time put in working with...

something I left behind finding my own path..

Taichi Stick, Follow, Join Against the Clinch

alings with my experience...

"na " done using empty space

taiji is said to be spherical

if so what would one grab

[Trick]

Ting Jin (and Dong Jin) are btdt topics. I think everything on the topic has been covered pretty well in this thread and the previous threads on the topic- https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29739&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=de062e6ddb8f5e2b424932a464f897d5

But I did just remember another example of Dong Jin outside of martial arts is seen in professional Table Tennis players. You could even say that they got to that level by first passing through their Listening phase, where they learned how the ball interacts with the paddle and table, and how to add english to it. Over time it progressed beyond that to Knowing. Now imagine a martial artist moving that fast and with both the agility and precision of the professional Table Tennis player. Which also requires Shen Ji Cong Ren, only in this case instead of Ren (the other person) it’s the ball. Everything is happening before contact just like Dongjin can do. But of course it also works after contact, wherein you know where the opponent’s body is in relative space. Where is their supporting arm, where are their feet, where can they possibly step to, etc. Now I, myself, am not even near this level of skill but I study with a teacher who has been at this level since I first met him. I’ve felt it enough times that I know it’s something tangible, and something that can be achieved by ordinary people, under the right circumstances.

and how to add english to it

what do you mean by this ?…

[D_Glenn]

Putting a spin on the ball so that it curves in the air after it’s hit.

[wayne hansen]

The Brendan Lai clip is a grown man against a little boy
The boy gives up the moment he steps in the technique would be quite different against a man of equal skill and size who is really trying
Don't apologize for the Chen it is high quality
No I don't think a Kick to the face and all the other things are low quality if delivered with skill at the right time
I prefer to use a kick to the face when my opponents head is below my waist
Even though all the words grab ect.are derived from different languages they have very different meanings in English and that is what we are using here
When a woman tells you not to be so grabby a different approach is needed
In all martial arts we try to refine to higher skill levels that is the point of training
If you don't one day you will find the error of your ways to your own detriment

[origami_itto]

If they grab you can use that contact to control them as easily as they can use it to control you.

Push hands is a poor name for the practice. It's about controlling them on contact.

If you don't train grabbing in push hand, when do you train that? People always say PH only trains a certain skill. But how about the other skills such as a

- grab on the wrist,
- punch to the face,
- kick to the chest?

Do we treat Taiji as a fighting art or not?

We try not to "grab" but to "seize".

Think of it like the staff, do you "grab" the staff? No, because if you grip it tightly you lose mobility and power and you take more damage from whatever you hit. That doesn't mean that the staff is not under your control.

Your lively fingers and hands adapt to the ever changing conditions to keep exactly the correct contact with the object dynamically in motion.

If something is going to hit you, you have three choices.

* Let it hit you
* Move out of the way
* Put something else in the way

[Trick]

I don’t like the word grabbing but to seize or lock should use the same energy as anything in tai chi ...

You may not like grabbing, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you. Can you push your opponent away when he has a solid grip on you?

The more that we talk about "push", the more that "push" seems to be a kid's game that has no combat value at all.

What's the Taiji solution for this?

Whata- is that guy in black hat grabbing at ? !

[Trick]

Putting a spin on the ball so that it curves in the air after it’s hit.

I mean - wasn’t there English words for such in table tennis until recently , is that what you mean. Table tennis was invented by an Englishman.
I just thought your table tennis analogy curved strangely