Yang family

[johnwang]

Here's what's supposed to be one of the Yang Banhou forms. Every step is almost a kick

I like this video very much. It's a good training for single leg balance. Thanks for sharing.

[wayne hansen]

In all tai chi every step is a kick
My Wu teachers did the Ban hou form but only for demonstrations
I don’t like the way he raises and drops locking out the legs he also has a lack of stability in his right leg

[Steve James]

How would one know if it was Ban hou's form or not ?

Ah, that was sort of the point. Who standardized Banhou's form? Was it standardized at all? Is that the reason we can find several variations that look very different? There is a book attributed to Yang Panhou, but no one knows for sure. (Brennan has a translation available online (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/).

However, the book doesn't/didn't have any photos/drawings of YPH's form. YCF "standardized" the form, but other family members and disciples had their own ideas. Student's in Panhou's tradition can be as varied as those in Chengfu's, or even CMC's. Well, CMC's may be a bit more standardized because it has its own form. Then again, William CC Chen's form is based on CMC, but it's his own expression.

The diversity isn't a bad thing. Otoh, it has led to people in tcc saying that everyone else is doing the wrong thing or just not what they do.

[windwalker]

How would one know if it was Ban hou's form or not ?

Ah, that was sort of the point. Who standardized Banhou's form? Was it standardized at all? Is that the reason we can find several variations that look very different? There is a book attributed to Yang Panhou, but no one knows for sure. (Brennan has a translation available online (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/).

However, the book doesn't/didn't have any photos/drawings of YPH's form. YCF "standardized" the form, but other family members and disciples had their own ideas. Student's in Panhou's tradition can be as varied as those in Chengfu's, or even CMC's. Well, CMC's may be a bit more standardized because it has its own form. Then again, William CC Chen's form is based on CMC, but it's his own expression.

The diversity isn't a bad thing. Otoh, it has led to people in tcc saying that everyone else is doing the wrong thing or just not what they do.

the question tongue and cheek..

thanks for the answer


Have found there really is no standardization except among those competing in forms being judged part of the rational why certain forms were created ie 24 step, ect...
Or family styles with family members still in charge of the organizations tung, wu, yang come to mind...

However there are concepts and principles that give movements commonality, even though they may be different. While in Taiwan,
some people noted my movements were different, they felt the principles, concepts were the same.

We had no. problem talking about taij, demoing our unique expressions causing the same reactions...to those demoed on..

As you noted in another post, differences among masters are done for purpose... It's interesting to see and feel.

Feel the problem among those I've met is one of depth.
Feeling they'er doing the same thing when examined closely they'er not.

The teaching in modern times a little different

When one states that teachers have changed the way they do the form,

It's sometimes due to faulty perception and limited understanding of the form. This problem also occurs when teachers teach the form before they've mas- tered it themselves. Sometimes when a student observes others doing taiji and their postures seem different, it's the student's fault.

Usually when a posture seems changed, it's because the student isn't doing the posture correctly; he
isn't following the principles. Even now, when I ask students ni my workshops to do the postures, they can't do them; they can't maintain the taiji principles while doing these postures. If those students teach someday, their students their students will follow them in doing the postures incorrectly.

[Steve James]

Yep, imo, it's hard to avoid variation. Though, variation can be innovation. We're talking about forms here, though. People in general are testing to find out whether the innovation is worthwhile because it's generally unnecessary to find out. I.e., it's not a matter of life or death or keeping a rice bowl filled .

Anyway, I looked around to find examples of Yang style by YCF's well known students. Who else do we have originals of?

Wang Yongquan

Huang Sheng-Shyan and Cheng Man-Ching 37 Step Tai Chi Form Side By Side

Yang Zhenguo

Yang Zhenduo

Yang Chen Fu's second son Yang Zhen Ji

Fu Zhong Wen Performing Yang Family Tai Chi

Dong Yingjie

Chen Weiming

Chu Guiting

Tian Zhaolin (I think there's a vid of him doing it, or there was. Back in the 90s, it was a big thing bringing him over here. Iinm, Leroy Clark was involved.

[wayne hansen]

Some are not variations they are just bad form

[Trick]

' not having the whole system
I was referring to The Yang Family

The original whole taijiquan system is the 13 postures which is still the core of any of the Yangtaijiquan linages..

Did YLC have the sanshou training method YBH created ? or the sword form YCF taught ? Anyway those are “just” later added extras to the original “whole system” 13 posture training of which are found in any of the Yang-TJQ long form versions .

[wayne hansen]

Now we’re just being silly
This is just conjecture
Is that what YLC learnt in the Chen village
If that is the case just hug the tree
If u don’t even have what YCF taught
Why
How much did the sons learn
YSC teaching snake and tiger forms
YLC sons being tardy in their training and being challenged at his death to pick up their game or admit that others were the inheritors of the art
What was the chair story

[Trick]

it’s no secret that at least the two youngest of YCF’s sons also learned from others than directly from father, senior students appointed by YCF, the second son spent much time learning with the oldest son.
As I wrote earlier, the young sons was initially taught by their “older brother” FZW, similar as to YBH was initially taught by some of YLC’s students, this kind of arrangement is common.
All the TJQ knowledge/full transmission are alive in Yang family hometown Guangfu/Yongnian, also it is well known that after YCF’s passing Li Yaxuan was agreed on to be the head representative of Yang taijiquan after some his seniors had declined the offer, so plenty of sources from whom the sons of YCF could have gotten the “full transmission “, but maybe some of the sons chose to not get that so called full transmission and just focused on the essential practice of TJQ.

What could perhaps also be seen is that quite a few things and thinkings was added to Yang-TJQ in places such as Hong Kong and Taiwan and southeast Asia such as in Malaysia that has come to be presented as Yang TJQ full curriculum

[origami_itto]

YCF by his own admission wasn't interested until he got a taste of the money.
He started training late and didn't put in very much time.

Luckily, he was a Yang, so he only needed 1/4 of the time training to become the best.

He's a confirmed liar, both in his books and in recorded interactions with others. Cosigned by Cheng Man Ching.

His wasn't the only Tai Chi around, he just gave it the Bikram treatment. Made it easier for casual students to get involved and feel closer to the great heroes like in their novels. We should thank him for making it mass marketable and giving so many people the opportunity to learn a piece.

Some of us really need to get honest about what it is and isn't, though, and stop chasing those wuxia fantasies.

What you got? What can you do? When are you doing it, or are you just running your mouth? Those are the important questions. We already know the purity and authenticity of the exercises are beyond tainted, it doesn't matter.

What is it doing for you and what are you doing for it? What are you doing with it?

[Steve James]

What are you doing with it?

To me, this may be the most important question. A person may never master any part of a tcc system but still use it to help others. I think tcc is "for" people, not the other way around. If that weren't true, why bother to teach an elderly person? They're not going to be competing.

Afa the vids, the ones of YCF's original students were done when they were older, not when they were taking challenges. So, I never expect them to have exceptional form. Some fighters don't do much form at all; some people do great wushu, but don't fight.

So, I pay more attention to "how" they make the transitions, for ex, not how well. If the intention is there, it's not like watching "hand waving."

[Trick]

Mmmm, the sword wizard general Li opened the big institute in Nanjing invited many masters to teach, including YCF.
After Nanjing most went to Shanghai and it was“everyone on their own” - business competition, the melody of Shanghai.
That YCF started seriously practicing later in life is no secret and apparently he learned well, maybe that’s why those with whatever grudge toward him did not face him when I still was alive.

YCF lied !…? Let the one without sin cast the first stone.
If anyone today feel betrayed by YCF and ZMQ is quite a ridiculous stance to take to say at least, be honest about it - you were betrayed already by the stories of YLC and those alike….It’s all in your own head……

YCF’s teachings have served countless of people worldwide with wellbeing, whatever the supposed lies of his they must have been quite insignificant .

[windwalker]

outlines the teachings of the Yang family

Taken all together,

given the large, vibrant, and knowledgeable community, it would be impossible for the Yang’s to be teaching one set of drastically watered-down skills to the nobles – the very people who made all these growth and development possible, and teach another, more advanced set to other Han people, whom the Manchurian patrons also know equally well.

This traditional of patronage would continue during the early days of Republic era.

In 1933, Yuan Liang became the fourth mayor of Beijing. Yuan was deeply interested in martial arts, and asked head of Beijing Physical Culture Institute (北平体育研究社) Xu Yusheng (许禹生) to recommend a teacher for him. Xu was one of the first modern educators in modern China. Between age 20 – 24, Liu Dekuan came and taught him at his house. Beijing Physical Culture Institute was the first time martial art was taught to the public outside of the traditional private master-disciple system.

Many of the first generation instructors were great masters, they were responsible, as a necessity for teaching large classes, systematizing, formalizing, and in many cases creating (ex. Bagua Jian) many of the empty hand and weapons routines in traditional martial art. So Xu knew everyone.

Note: don't necessarily agree with his conclusions, do understand the rational of the writing..
Many stories of things not taught directly to the public

In the time of Qing Dynasty, taijiquan was quite popular in the royal palace due to Prince Pu Lun Bei Zi, a man of great power and wealth, who appreciated the fighting technique of Yang-style taijiquan. He recognized the martial applications disguised in the slow, graceful movements, as if there were needles hidden, wrapped in cotton.

He invited Yang Jian Hou (third son of Yang Lu Chan—creating master of Yang Style Taijiquan) into his mansion to teach and offered generous reward and favor, which influenced the Yang family to share their secrets of gongfu and taijiquan and to teach the traditional internal power that is usually called "Lao Liu Lu" or "Old Six Routines."

However, it was Wang Chong Lu, a housekeeper and servant of Prince Lun, and his son who actually went into deep study and developed the deep understanding needed to inherit the internal power and technique. This became the bloodline thriving in the capital for the internal power and mind approach.

It is said, Wang Chong Lu, when formally acknowledging Yang as master, was instructed by Yang, "What I teach you (the mind approach of the internal power) shall not be released outside, except to your son.

That is the Yang's livelihood, and you do not want to ruin [it]." Wang and his son kept their word, and never released any of the secrets of the mind approach of internal power.
It was not until the 1990s, the third anniversary of Wang Yong Quan's passing, that True Essence of Yang Style Taijiquan was released to the public. In it he described, in detail, the essence of Yang Style Lao Liu Lu. It is a true classic of Yang style, which is the great achievement and contribution of Wang Yong Quan in his later years.

While the stories are interesting,
what they did back then,
what can those following this method do now,
make it interesting.

[origami_itto]

YCF lied !…? Let the one without sin cast the first stone.
If anyone today feel betrayed by YCF and ZMQ is quite a ridiculous stance to take to say at least, be honest about it - you were betrayed already by the stories of YLC and those alike….It’s all in your own head……

Yes he flat out lied in his book about a conversation he had with Yang Luchan.

He also played fast and loose with facts about his grandfather's life and learning and travels to help bolster his reputation.

I'm not casting any stones, just stating documented facts. The harm it causes is first to his own reputation and credibility and second to that of those that won't acknowledge his dishonesty.

Third it just further muddies the water of an already murky history. Anyone thirsty for the TRUTH should be a little upset by it.

[D_Glenn]

Steve James, thanks for posting all these clips.
My favorite is Dong Yingjie’s video, and I just realized why, he’s got a lot of movement in his torso (shen fa), he’s not keeping a Ridge pole spine throughout his form.

Quick question- do you have a daily qigong or neigong?

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