the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Taijiquan form is different in the way it’s focus is spherical, going slow is the quickest way to understand this, when it is fully understood in body and mind mixed pace comes naturally

johnwang wrote:A 100% fast form training is also boring.

Boring for who? For the person doing the form or for someone watching. For someone with knowledge watching, or someone with no knowledge about this area? For you doing the form, or for me doing it? Same applies to any form being "boring". I spent many years in movement performance arts and it was very good for me to start training CIMA stuff that was absolutely not performance art. A huge release, sometimes. The only really significant criteria are whether the form is teaching me something or not and whether I myself am 'bored' or not, irrespective of whether someone else might find it more interesting to watch paint dry than me doing a form. And in 99% of cases, my possible boredom will then be the fault not of the form, but of me.

johnwang wrote: I may be the last person on earth who doesn't care about "meditation". I didn't care when I was young. I also don't care when I'm older.

I don't need it in the same way now, and my focus in my training is different. But when I was younger it helped me to get rid of worries and to calm my mind.

...To be honest, it feels a bit strange to hear a person who is almost only interested in fighting not being interested in meditation. Those things are very much connected. I don't know, maybe people are different, but If you really want to understand how to fight, getting to know the empty mind-state is very important. It's not a coincidence that the samurai meditated and spoke highly about the importance of "mushin" (wuxin). It's a mind state connected to creativity and spontaneity. It helps you to react instantly on what is happening, and helps you to access the muscle memory. If you can't control your thoughts and emotions, you can't be a good fighter, so meditation helps anyone who wants to really learn how to fight.

johnwang wrote:

Bao wrote:Form practice with very, very slow and with even movement (pulling silk) is good for meditation, to empty and clear your mind.

I may be the last person on earth who doesn't care about "meditation". I didn't care when I was young. I also don't care when I'm older. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby.

It's very good for your nervous system.

Doing the slow form for an hour, without having to think about the movement or the choreography, because you have already memorized it, allows you to be in a state of Wuwei, which can activate your Glymphatic system. The Glymphatic system cleans out C-Reactive Proteins (CRPs) that are caused by inflammation from concussions. Every slam to the mat or hit taken even with gloves on is causing minor inflammation to the brain. CRPs left unchecked in the brain increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier and cause neurodegeneration over time. Theoretically if Boxers practiced Taijiquan slow form or Circle Walking (called Xing Zhuang) they could have longer careers and less dementia in their older years.

Performance based practice the speed,tempo among other things very important for the performance .
Usage based practice, the speed, tempo done in accordance with the theories used that guide it.

Giles wrote:

johnwang wrote:A 100% fast form training is also boring.

Boring for who?

When you train form in 100% speed, you don't have enough time to compress and release. Your form training can be considered as ignore power generation.

Bao wrote:

johnwang wrote: I may be the last person on earth who doesn't care about "meditation". I didn't care when I was young. I also don't care when I'm older.

...To be honest, it feels a bit strange to hear a person who is almost only interested in fighting not being interested in meditation.

I'm against sitting meditation. I'm always in favor of moving meditation.

When you are

- still alive, you should go out of your front door, see the ocean, the mountain, the sky, ... , and enjoy your life.
- dead, you can meditate in your coffin quietly as long as you wish.

Moving around is the key of long life. When you move around, your mind and body can be unified as one unit. Your blood circulate will be good. Sitting meditation is bad for blood circulation.



Also, for the sake of the spiritual discussion, will it be better to let your soul to be integrated among the natural instead of to be isolated by yourself?

OK John, how fast can you do your form? Can you do it in under a minute to the same standard as you can do it in 10 minutes?

The way I was taught, the form is supposed to be a form of meditation "in motion" aopt sitting meditation.

The older pre-1932 version of Yang Style TCC which I practice and teach includes a Small Frame Fast Form set attributed to Master Yang Pan-Hou. It incorporates all of the physical expressions of the Yin/Yang concept represented in the Tai-Chi Tu diagram, such as large and small circles; soft, light defensive movements combined with strong, heavy offensive movements; a varying speed of performance within the form set, rather than a consistently slow speed of performance throughout the set, and so forth.

In some schools or systems, form sets like this are often referred to as Usage Forms, Application Forms, or simply as Fighting Forms, because the movement is intended to train students to perform all postures and transitional movements with a more realistic and functionally efficient martial expression, as if actually defending and fighting.

Unlike the Medium Frame and Large Frame sets, the Small Frame Fast Form set focuses primarily on developing practical soft style IMA boxing skill. It is assumed that the practitioner has already acquired a high level of competency in basic body methods and movement patterns through the practice of larger, slower and softer form sets and drills previously.

Steve James wrote::) OK John, how fast can you do your form? Can you do it in under a minute to the same standard as you can do it in 10 minutes?

I like to do it with slow compress and fast release.

Steve James wrote:The way I was taught, the form is supposed to be a form of meditation "in motion" aopt sitting meditation.

For moving meditation, I can do

- Taiji brush knee twist step, or
- Xing Yi Pi Quan,

1000 times non-stop. I'll get the same result. All my training is integrated with my 4 miles daily walking. I can only train drills when I walk. I can't train form when I walk.

D_Glenn wrote:Doing the slow form for an hour, without having to think about the movement or the choreography, because you have already memorized it, allows you to be in a state of Wuwei, ..

Ok, there probably are people that do the form like this, probably a lot of people.
But this is not TaijiQUAN, because it has absolutely no direct connection to the “quan”thing.
Slow taijiquan is not meditation, however it’s a good mindful(ness) practice because the mind must be at work all the time. When one has gotten the choreography right, then it’s time to step up to the important mind work, the ones that are relevant for taijiquan to be taijiQUAN, an hour of not doing this is an hour of nothing, not even wuwei
Wuwei does not come around from forced nothingness, but from action under some form of“pressure”.

Variable speed demonstrations are certainly more interesting to watch than grass growing or paint drying.

From a neurological point of view, speed of motion changes the neural pathways one trains, so for a complete training, you want to do forms very slow and very fast and a few speeds in-between.

If you're mentally checked out while doing your form you are cheating yourself of most of the benefits of the practice.

Trick wrote:

D_Glenn wrote:Doing the slow form for an hour, without having to think about the movement or the choreography, because you have already memorized it, allows you to be in a state of Wuwei, ..

Ok, there probably are people that do the form like this, probably a lot of people.
But this is not TaijiQUAN, because it has absolutely no direct connection to the “quan”thing.
Slow taijiquan is not meditation, however it’s a good mindful(ness) practice because the mind must be at work all the time. When one has gotten the choreography right, then it’s time to step up to the important mind work, the ones that are relevant for taijiquan to be taijiQUAN, an hour of not doing this is an hour of nothing, not even wuwei
Wuwei does not come around from forced nothingness, but from action under some form of“pressure”.

I do an hour of Circle Walking but it’s not just a meditation. I’m also strengthening my legs, the posture is strengthening my upper, I’m using my Transverse Abdominis, interior and exterior Oblique muscles to strengthen my waist while turning it to face the center, training my footwork, I’m strengthening my equilibrium, I’m cultivating energy because my tailbone is tucked under, all the while my Intent is being trained. But after that I still practice Dan Shi. Single striking drills and short combos, while following the Internal art rules to develop Chansijin and what not.

So in a Taiji form, with all of its low postures and changing the height of one’s stance it is strengthening the legs, can also develop Chansijin because that’s how the form is designed to work. But after that you should still practice single movements, back to back, as a striking drill. You can do it slow or fast. Do the form for one hour, then do your striking drills or whatever fight training you do for another hour. Minimum.