Wang Yan and Neutralization

[yeniseri]

So I came upon this interesting sample of Wang Yan at a workshop/seminar a few years back and his style
(combat applications) reminds me of Chen Yu, and Ren Guangyi. Wang Yan's level of neutralization and 'sinking
into emptiness' through structural and sensory (ting jin) is a skill that I have never been able to duplicate so I
remain amazed at my low level of nothingness and laziness.

The choice of words in describing the opponent as 'forcing an issue' while attempting to overcome a thing shows
a wall that is usually thrown up and not being able to read the others' resilience or manner of relating to the unknow, is seen
very plainly

[Bao]

Thought it was a nice analysis.

Yes, being in the moment and reacting without any preconceived ideas is extremely important and also something most people don’t get or can’t do. We always try to force or ideas, opinions and our own reality on others and onto what we ourselves do. That is why people can't draw – they force their own internal images on what they see. That is why most people who struggle with chess never reach a higher level – because they try to force strategies instead of reacting to the changes. And that's why people can't develop higher skills in the internal arts – they don't want to leave their own taught ideas about how their bodies work. But all of this is hard to achieve because you need to learn how to use, or activate, your nervous system in a way you are not used to. So it takes some time and struggle as you need to re-program your muscle memory and learn to switch on the "right side of the brain" to really be able to be and stay in the right spot in your mind.

[nicklinjm]

Sure, I can see he is using some taiji techniques (kao, ti fang, etc) in the encounter. However what I don't see is any evidence of taiji jin - is he using any pengjin? Is there any moment where his opponent tries to move Wang but is unable to due to rooting?

Most of the times when he 'gets' the practice partner are pure shuai jiao throws (not saying they are bad throws, just a shuai jiao guy would do them in exactly the same way with the same mechanics).

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see much taiji skill on display.

[origami_itto]

Sure, I can see he is using some taiji techniques (kao, ti fang, etc) in the encounter. However what I don't see is any evidence of taiji jin - is he using any pengjin? Is there any moment where his opponent tries to move Wang but is unable to due to rooting?

Most of the times when he 'gets' the practice partner are pure shuai jiao throws (not saying they are bad throws, just a shuai jiao guy would do them in exactly the same way with the same mechanics).

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see much taiji skill on display.

It's very good Chen style.

That isn't a dig.

Taylor Mali said "I make them show their work in math class and hide it in creative writing"

He's neutralizing very well and as solid as he needs when he needs it. It's pretty textbook stuff. The parts that look wrong you'd find in your weapons systems in a full curriculum.

[GrahamB]

I really don't buy the narrative given by the commentator that the Caucasian guy is not feeling anything or just trying random stuff blindly. He clearly is trying to do things that are appropriate to the moment, but the Chinese guy is just better at it.

I would also call this wrestling not push hands.

[twocircles13]

So I came upon this interesting sample of Wang Yan at a workshop/seminar a few years back and his style
(combat applications) reminds me of Chen Yu, and Ren Guangyi. Wang Yan's level of neutralization and 'sinking
into emptiness' through structural and sensory (ting jin) is a skill that I have never been able to duplicate so I
remain amazed at my low level of nothingness and laziness.

The choice of words in describing the opponent as 'forcing an issue' while attempting to overcome a thing shows
a wall that is usually thrown up and not being able to read the others' resilience or manner of relating to the unknow, is seen
very plainly

These kinds of challenges or demonstrations are not meant to show the subtleties of Taijiquan. This is taiji-marketing. "Look how awesome you can be if follow our system.” The unfortunate thing is with that setup, the “expert,” for lack of a better word, has to prove themselves by winning.

As the “expert,” you don’t always know how skilled, fast, or strong your opponent is, so you have to take advantage of the opportunities offered, take short cuts and often demonstrate a lower level of skill than you actually possess. The caucasian clearly has some tournament style push hands experience, so Wang Yan doesn’t give him an opportunity to gain an advantage.

I would call this upper low skill level. There are some taijiquan principles shown, but much of it is sloppily executed and seems to get worse as it goes along. There is certainly no teaching or training shown, just domination.

As you can tell, I don’t care for this kind of demo.

[D_Glenn]

So I came upon this interesting sample of Wang Yan at a workshop/seminar a few years back and his style
(combat applications) reminds me of Chen Yu, and Ren Guangyi. Wang Yan's level of neutralization and 'sinking
into emptiness' through structural and sensory (ting jin) is a skill that I have never been able to duplicate so I
remain amazed at my low level of nothingness and laziness.

The choice of words in describing the opponent as 'forcing an issue' while attempting to overcome a thing shows
a wall that is usually thrown up and not being able to read the others' resilience or manner of relating to the unknow, is seen
very plainly

I was just watching this video and I came here to post it. Thanks for saving me the trouble. It is reminiscent of a Chen Yu video I just saw the other day.

I see what gets ingrained into one’s body when they have learned to Bao Fali. That’s the elephant in the room. Yang style guys will never be able to replicate what he’s doing.

[origami_itto]

I really don't buy the narrative given by the commentator that the Caucasian guy is not feeling anything or just trying random stuff blindly. He clearly is trying to do things that are appropriate to the moment, but the Chinese guy is just better at it.

I would also call this wrestling not push hands.

He's trying to attack, that's the problem. That's the "blindly".

You want to get to the meat and potatoes of TEH REAL Taijiquan, it's reactive. If they don't move, I don't move, when they move, I get there first.

T. T. Liang compared it to a dog chasing a squirrel versus a cat chasing a squirrel.

He keeps trying the same things over and over and they don't amount to more than trying to be faster and stronger and catch him out by surprise and overpower him. That forces the teacher to up the energy to preserve the relationship of teacher to student, IMHO. It's rude of the student to put the teacher in that position. You either accept their authority to teach or you don't. If you want to test their skills, make sure that's the intention going in and you both agree. Surprises are no fun for anybody and sad as it is most folks image as a teacher can't handle being seen to be affected by a student. It takes it out of the realm of instruction and into ego, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Me I say that's a good teacher. Either way. Stepping up to remind them why they're listening, or teaching how to counter them and letting students get to feel that.

Doing it correctly is, as Onassis puts it, letting them do everything correctly and still lose.

Aside from the trip which I read as "I can dump you whenever I like" Wang is responding to the attacks, neutralizing, and countering.

I agree with twocircles but with the stipulation that either of these two would easily wipe the floor with most of the critics here in this context.

[twocircles13]

So I came upon this interesting sample of Wang Yan at a workshop/seminar a few years back and his style
(combat applications) reminds me of Chen Yu, and Ren Guangyi. Wang Yan's level of neutralization and 'sinking
into emptiness' through structural and sensory (ting jin) is a skill that I have never been able to duplicate so I
remain amazed at my low level of nothingness and laziness.

The choice of words in describing the opponent as 'forcing an issue' while attempting to overcome a thing shows
a wall that is usually thrown up and not being able to read the others' resilience or manner of relating to the unknow, is seen
very plainly

These kinds of challenges or demonstrations are not meant to show the subtleties of Taijiquan. This is taiji-marketing. "Look how awesome you can be if follow our system.” The unfortunate thing is with that setup, the “expert,” for lack of a better word, has to prove themselves by winning.

As the “expert,” you don’t always know how skilled, fast, or strong your opponent is, so you have to take advantage of the opportunities offered, take short cuts and often demonstrate a lower level of skill than you actually possess. The caucasian clearly has some tournament style push hands experience, so Wang Yan doesn’t give him an opportunity to gain an advantage.

I would call this upper low skill level. There are some taijiquan principles shown, but much of it is sloppily executed and seems to get worse as it goes along. There is certainly no teaching or training shown, just domination.

As you can tell, I don’t care for this kind of demo.

Thinking about this for a minute more, this is the kind of response you have to someone who comes in off the streets, says, "You suck!” challenges you, and you decide to use push hands as the format, so neither of you leaves in an ambulance or body bag.

This looks like a seminar. This kind of demonstration just seems out of place to me. Perhaps, the guy has been giving him lip all day and Wang just wants to shut him up. There are probably better ways.

[origami_itto]

I see what gets ingrained into one’s body when they have learned to Bao Fali. That’s the elephant in the room. Yang style guys will never be able to replicate what he’s doing.

Maaaann, and we were getting along so well, lmfao.

But yeah, I agree on a couple levels. Most Yang tai chi people aren't going to muster that much force... ever.

The folks that do are usually going to do it a little differently. That Kao, for example, isn't going to involve throwing the torso and counterbalancing with the leg as much. It works differently mechanically, but the energy is basically the same.

Why use your own force when there's so much laying around free for the taking?

[twocircles13]

Why use your own force when there's so much laying around free for the taking?

Exactly.

[Steve James]

Yang tcc guys won't get what? My friend Mario's a CMC guy.

[D_Glenn]

I see what gets ingrained into one’s body when they have learned to Bao Fali. That’s the elephant in the room. Yang style guys will never be able to replicate what he’s doing.

Maaaann, and we were getting along so well, lmfao.

In the video you can literally see a Yang Taiji guy, attempting to replicate the movement and for lack of a better word, it’s External. He doesn’t have the same Whole Body Method as the Chen guy. He would have to solely train 10 odd years of Chen style with Bao Fali, in order to have the same quality of movement. It’s not about power. It’s the insides that are different. The flesh and bones are different.

[D_Glenn]

Yang tcc guys won't get what? My friend Mario's a CMC guy.

Thanks for posting an even greater, more clear cut difference between the Whole Body Methods of Yang and Chen. Yang Luchan learned Chen style but the Apple has since fallen so far from the tree that it has now turned into an Orange.

[GrahamB]

Thanks for posting an even greater, more clear cut difference between the Whole Body Methods of Yang and Chen. Yang Luchan learned Chen style but the Apple has since fallen so far from the tree that it has now turned into an Orange.

Damn, I loved the early 2000s rec.martialarts arguments about Chen vs Yang, thanks for taking me straight back there!