the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

johnwang wrote:Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

When discussing expertise one fundamental requirement is being exposed to other people who are experts. TO have experience at that level. Why, is obvious, so you can actually 'just do it' rather than having to work everything out. Working things out should be the domain of the upper level Grandmasters. For us, the road has been made easy.

I would counter your list of questions with another list of questions.

1. How many 2 person drills do you know? Each set of push hands is one drill. And other drills also count.
2. How many 2 person forms do you know?
3. How often do you spend practicing those forms?
4. With how many people do you regularly train those sets and drills?

If you want to make your own forms that is great. However, do you know what you are doing? Do you have any experience with what amounts to a 2 person form?

The great Grandmaster Wang Zi-Ping said, "I had to add some crack moves for the sake of the 2 man version of this form," meaning, that in essence no one can really predict what will happen in a fight. Saying technique A disproves technique B isn't really correct in martial arts. Even in the deep and secret practices of chaquan, it is said that 'four hands are required for gaining confidence'. Was something else said, or did we imagine it?

IMO it is better to know where you are and how to proceed from there. In four hands, if you simply step down and punch, the opponent can simply downward block, and the form repeats with the same attacker on the opposite side. Or you can stand at attention (i.e. reset) and switch attacker and defender. Also, if you try punching with the same hand out as your leg, or the opposite hand and leg, gives certain advantages in advance and retreat. Also, being in bow stance or empty stance, gives you certain advantages while doing it. All of that is more important than having a form which necessarily follows A+B, B+C, C+D.

Also even in something like four hands, why not just punch the opponent instead of blocking the arm strike (fourth position)? Is there a real reason you *have to* block? What exactly then is a "crack technique" and if, such is required, maybe the idea that a form "has to be" 100% martial, or that certain rules (such as the interesting rules you mentioned) might not be practical enough to use. Maybe it is something we can arrive at over time. In this way we can continue to contribute to martial arts in our lifetimes.

Your opponent has to respond in a logic way in order to make this task meaningful. When you throw a punch or a kick, if your opponent just lays down on the ground or run away from you, your combo will not make any sense.

Drill separately, no need for a form. All the parts are there. There's also the 88 san shou form, and that can always be made more demanding.

But, it'd be great to see the form that you would make up. You didn't mention any shuai jiao in your request, but lots of people would be interested in your take. We could call it Wang tcc.

In my Baguazhang every form we practice has 1 set up 2, and so on, but they’re all only 7 movement forms because the founders had figured out that if the opponent is still standing after 7 attacks then you have to make a radical change and switch to a different form or more devious method, or try to run away because you’re outgunned.

This is why requirement 1 is very difficult to meet. I have not seen any form on earth that contains a 16 moves combo yet.

I'm working on a "self-polishing form" that contains the following.

Punch - jab, cross, uppercut, overhand, back fist, forward palm strike, downward palm strike.
Kick - front toes kick, front heel kicks, roundhouse kick, side kick, reverse side kick (knee kick).
Block - inside out, outside in, upward, downward, single switch hand, double switch hands, comb hair.

I first define the content. I can then decide the connection.

We have 8 different Methods 能 néng. They’re arranged in order from 1-8. Where 1 is big heavy generalized attacks. And 8 is small, evil, vicious attacks that can be lethal. You will probably start a defense against an assault with the 1st to 3rd method but progress to more vicious methods as the confrontation continues. Or another way to look at the progression of methods is that #1 you can use to fight against a buddy of yours, in a brawl. But using #8 you might end up in jail unless you can claim that you were defending your own life.

So you could do back to back forms, just increasing the intensity and level of viciousness. If you used method #8 and it failed then you should probably run.

16 moves form ! Ha, TJQ has play with the number 13…..
And that’s the essential for the TJQ form…harnessing all the possibilities of combat and more

johnwang wrote:Your opponent has to respond in a logic way in order to make this task meaningful. When you throw a punch or a kick, if your opponent just lays down on the ground or run away from you, your combo will not make any sense.

That's why I say don't use combos.Embrace Wu Wei.

I once learned a Ying Jow Pai form where the first 8 moves were countered by the second eight, and vice versa. Since move 1 countered move 16, it could be done continuously as a two person drill. Of all the forms I've learned and forgotten over the years, that's the one I've regretted losing the most.

The best 'forms' (for lack of a better descriptive) that I have come across were those from Okinawan martial system, which has an origin in South
China. I never studied Okinawan-ryu systems but I did alot of their conditioning exercises along with kick and punching, which were more than
the obvious kick and punch so I do have a great respect. I did TKD, the offshoot of Shotokan, known as precursor to the multitude of forms 'invented'
by many known masters of the past century.





Template only of how basic structure in its "simpliest mode' can be effective, providing one has been taught accordingly.
Patrick McCarthy always maintains contact, or better said, the opponent maintains contact not knowing that he is helping
his 'dancing partner' and not the other way around. CMA is the same way! Look at Adam Hsu's admonition of making sure contact is never broken
with opponent. That allows for proper execution of what one was taught.

Gee and there was me thinking there were enough forms already

seems like FMA 9 angles of attack "forms" already covers all of it. not sure about kick (but those would probably be from the "lower" angles).

Yes everyday I do the Lameco and KI 12

Bhassler wrote:I once learned a Ying Jow Pai form where the first 8 moves were countered by the second eight, and vice versa. Since move 1 countered move 16, it could be done continuously as a two person drill. Of all the forms I've learned and forgotten over the years, that's the one I've regretted losing the most.

Oh, I know that form! It was the first form I was taught when I was learning Eagle Claw too. Over the years I didn't practice it as much but we do it once a week or so for old times sake. Its a great source of applications, for sure.