Jinlou - Tendons and Meridians and Fasica (Oh My)

[D_Glenn]

When blood is flowing out to areas where the flow has been cut off or there’s very little flow, the red blood cells that are the first to get there will send/ shoot their ATP molecules at the cells in the vessel walls, which signals them to relax and make room. This is Ying Qi (qi inside blood vessels).

This feeling happens to everyone. It’s painful. This was happening to people 3000 years ago too. What means did they have to explain it? That’s where the words come from. We use the words because of tradition.

But through the practice of Qigong you can recreate that feeling without having to fall asleep on a limb. And through the process of doing qigong, if you happen to fall asleep on something, you can put your Intention into that blood flow and aid and accelerate it and it is no longer a painful ordeal that you dread. It’s just another chance to practice your qigong.

[Bao]

I agree with Graham. In fact most Chinese traditional medicine doctors speak about "qi" when the body has balance, when things work normally as it should. When there's an imbalance or blockage, they might say there's a blockage or imbalance of "qi". But they don't consider "qi" an energy. The quality of qi is just a way of expressing if the body is healthy or not.

[D_Glenn]

So you don’t practice Internal arts either.

This is qigong 101. It will eventually happen whether you want it to or not. It’s unavoidable if you actually practice.

[origami_itto]

I'm pretty sure there's a medical explanation for pins and needles that doesn't require the qi paradigm or believing in thing that aren't real. I mean, if you want to call blood flow 'qi' then ok.... but why....

Why call it blood flow, why not just blood?

And that's just the tip of it.

The "qi paradigm" is a part of the roadmap of a particular system.

Like if you are composing music you might choose a scale and a key and a time signature and from that derive complementary chords and melodies and from that counterpoints and pads and rhythms and beats with a variety of instruments.

If you decide that you want to throw out the concept of key, then that unifying paradigm collapses and your assembled composition will lack cohesion and aesthetic value.

Or time signature, or anything else. You can't use the system if you scrap part of it just because it makes you uncomfortable. At that point it's a broken system and it will make less and less sense the more you try to make it work.

Yet, other cultures HAVE created music with completely different concepts in music theory. They have a lot of similarities across cultures, but the ways that the ideas are modeled and expressed can at first glance seem incompatible.

Be like Ted Lasso, curious, not judgmental. What are these people all trying to point at with this "qi paradigm" and why is it so important to them? It seems to yield repeatable results, so should we just discard it as pseudoscientific nonsense from a primitive and ignorant culture?

If that's the case, why are we studying ANY of what they've left behind?

Qi has to be grokked basically, all the words can point at it but it's a mystery that must be experienced to be understood. Experienced on its own terms and within its own paradigm.

[D_Glenn]

Bao, I learned this from an Internal Martial Artist who made his living by doing Acupuncture, Tuina (bodywork), and Bone setting. He learned his trade from an Imperial Doctor who worked inside the Forbidden City but became unemployed after 1911 and lived with my teacher’s teacher. The Imperial doctor had trained in the standard Acupuncture medicine but also studied Bagua Medicine with Dong Haichuan.

[GrahamB]

I'm pretty sure there's a medical explanation for pins and needles that doesn't require the qi paradigm or believing in thing that aren't real. I mean, if you want to call blood flow 'qi' then ok.... but why....

Why call it blood flow, why not just blood?

Call it blood if you want. I don't mind. But it is in a continual state of movement and it's the lack of it flowing in an area that causes pins and needles.

[GrahamB]

You do understand that I learned this from an Internal Martial Artist who made his living by doing Acupuncture, Tuina (bodywork), and Bone setting. He learned his trade from an Imperial Doctor who worked inside the Forbidden City but became unemployed after 1911 and lived with my teacher’s teacher. The Imperial doctor had trained in the standard Acupuncture medicine but also studied Bagua Medicine with Dong Haichuan.

I'm sure you are highly qualified in qi.

[GrahamB]

I agree with Graham.

What the hell?!? I think the moon just turned blue.

[D_Glenn]

But I’m not qualified. My teacher was I suppose.

This is so basic (easy to learn) but at the same time it’s advanced because it’s something that can be honed for the rest of one’s lifetime. If you’re an Acupuncturist then you can use these skills to improve the outcomes of your treatments and have another diagnostic tool at your disposal.

[origami_itto]

I'm pretty sure there's a medical explanation for pins and needles that doesn't require the qi paradigm or believing in thing that aren't real. I mean, if you want to call blood flow 'qi' then ok.... but why....

Why call it blood flow, why not just blood?

Call it blood if you want. I don't mind. But it is in a continual state of movement and it's the lack of it flowing in an area that causes pins and needles.

I expanded on my response above, but you nailed my point precisely.

Well... kinda...

The blood itself is just a vessel (see what I did there), if its stagnant the energy it's supplying is quickly depleted and the cells start asphyxiating.

So the actual active flow itself is important, but if the blood isn't oxygenated doesn't matter one bit.

If the blood is oxygenated but there's no ATP to bond with, doesn't matter one bit.

If the nerve signal to the brain is blocked, which is really what's going on with your pins and needles, not blood, then also... it doesn't matter.

So it's not as simple as blood or as simple as flow.

Tingle Fingers is ACTUALLY indicative of nerves coming back online or coming to greater function, if you're feeling it during your qigong that's because you're starting to undo some of the damage the rest of the tension and poor posture you carry in your day to day. Its more subtle than your dead leg pins and needles because like all of these methods they're like folding steel a thousand times over, incremental change over a long time not big changes all at once, and like the enervation and vascularization of the white tissue the process is by nature slow.

[GrahamB]

You said that whole thing without having to say Qi and laugh at people who has supposedly been doing IMA for 25 years and know nothing. See - it is possible.

[origami_itto]

You said that whole thing without having to say Qi and laugh at people who has supposedly been doing IMA for 25 years and know nothing. See - it is possible.

It's possible, but we're talking about ONE touchpoint. They don't overlay exactly on each other and Qi as a concept expands far beyond what we're talking about here.

You can pick a paradigm to operate within, but while operating in that paradigm, the details of the other paradigm make less and less sense.

It's VERY difficult and unusual for someone to be able to competently navigate both paradigms simultaneously. Sure, you can have a conversation from a western perspective, and then from the TCM, but trying to mix the two in one is fraught with danger. You see it in those new agers all the time with the conflation of buddhist, hindo, taoist, and christian concepts that end up in "YIN IS BAD AND YANG IS GOOD WAIT WHICH ONE IS THE WHITE ONE AGAIN?"

[D_Glenn]

I guess if person just wants to practice our Bagua but they don’t want to be an acupuncturist then you don’t technically have to do qigong. (But it does help to at least do it and know a little in case you get sick). I met both my Grandteacher and his student (my current teacher) at the same time. The student is not an acupuncturist. He taught me an 8 movement qigong one time but for the martial art side we focus on doing intense Zhan Zhuang and Xing Zhuang. These are like warrior qigong where you don’t care about seeking the sensations because you want a lot of blood to flow out to your hands which will quickly wash any sensations away. So you could technically do this without ever feeling them.

But you will have to learn to use your Intent to move blood out to your hands, without actually moving. And you can measure this progress by looking at the palms and fingers of your hands. If there’s pinkness or red color that’s good. White areas, splotches, and white spots are bad. The deeper the color of red the better. My grandteacher and teacher have palms and fingers that are a deep dark purplish red. Like the color of a liver.

[Bob]

These are like warrior qigong where you don’t care about seeking the sensations because you want a lot of blood to flow out to your hands which will quickly wash any sensations away. So you could technically do this without ever feeling them.

But you will have to learn to use your Intent to move blood out to your hands, without actually moving. And you can measure this progress by looking at the palms and fingers of your hands.

The late Liu Yunqiao also described something pretty similar - once you reach a certain level of training one could sit with relaxed breathing, and think qi to the hand - it was described as a warming sensation and a swelling of the hand (increased blood flow).

Once you had a achieved a certain level of this development you could engage it (think it, intend it) from any posture/position for fighting usage. Not magical just another tool for your tool box.

We never knew whether it came from training in his bajiquan, baguazhang, or both.

[Bao]

The late Liu Yunqiao also described something pretty similar - once you reach a certain level of training one could sit with relaxed breathing, and think qi to the hand - it was described as a warming sensation and a swelling of the hand (increased blood flow).

Quite basic level. Just learn to relax better and breath deeper.

Once you had a achieved a certain level of this development you could engage it (think it, intend it) from any posture/position for fighting usage. Not magical just another tool for your tool box.

Good way to teach people to relax and breath deeper when they fight. Then they will punch/attack much harder.