The Heart and Spine are Important

[GrahamB]

I think videos of Kyuzo Mifune (Judo) is a good example of an upright posture - https://youtu.be/hgR7FVE2TZo?si=6Efuyk-0yaTzQAzA .

I'm not saying that Taijiquan should look like Judo, but Taijiquan has standup grappling. Mifune looks natural to me, but he's also generally upright.

I'm really unconvinced that this clip is resistive sparring. I think there's a lot of compliance and respect being given, despite any claims to the contrary. I just doesn't look 'real' to me.

Compare it to the clip of the famous Aikido guy (Kochi Tohei) going against the American who was having none of it...annoyingly it appears to have been removed from YouTube - there are little bits of it in this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1E1e36atA that breaks it down:

Edit: Ah, here it is:

[ThomasK]

WW, I believe we're in a sea of Qi, a huge field of it, and we have to make sure our body-heartmind-spirit alignment matches the requirements of that field.

We as human beings have a built in blueprint as to how to that flow should be ideally and all we do in Tai Chi is to allow that to happen. And as we allow that more and more, changes start happening.

Since it's a field you don't really project force or shoot out something or whatever.

The field is more like a piece of cloth. Fabric of mind, mind fabric if you want.

And if the mind grabs that cloth in one place and moves it, the whole cloth will be changed. It wrinkles, it bunches up, some points come closer together.

But the cloth has a neutral state, i.e. the natural flow or balance state of that energy. So it returns to that when the mind releases its grasp.

Edit: 'sea of qi' would be a confusing term here. Field or area is better

[GrahamB]

I don't know the full extent of Tim's beliefs on this, so it's unclear to me if this is a disagreement.

If someone wants to make the case that how they fight must have their postural requirements to be painstakingly identical to the form practice, then I think Tim's point on being more natural makes sense because fighting mode is not the same as training/cultivating mode. I do think that fighting should be natural because habit is natural.

If Tim wants to make the case that the form practice should be done without the postural requirements despite the long history of practitioners advocating for it during 'training mode', then I think Tim's point would count as a big disagreement.

I don't think the optimal way to walk justifies the optimal way to engage in other physical acts such as standup grappling. Because, when you're walking naturally, no one is giving you pressure. The context is completely different.

I believe he's making the case for 'head over foot' for athletic endeavors involving rhythm and timing. For example this clips shows boxing, tennis and rugby : https://www.instagram.com/p/CxYddTvtT6Z/?hl=en

He's definitely not making the case for weight bearing exercises, which may have more relevance for grappling.

His teacher has some interesting thoughts as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SJ0T1ktwOQ

[everything]

another reason judo or similar is a good standup grappling art for mma or broader. you are (at least theoretically) training/applying in "natural" posture more suited for the mixed (has striking) format than the "chimp" bent over wrestling (no strikes allowed) or start from knees bjj roll postures. tennis return of serve or getting ready posture isn't exactly totally upright.

[ParadoxTeapot]

I think videos of Kyuzo Mifune (Judo) is a good example of an upright posture - https://youtu.be/hgR7FVE2TZo?si=6Efuyk-0yaTzQAzA .

I'm not saying that Taijiquan should look like Judo, but Taijiquan has standup grappling. Mifune looks natural to me, but he's also generally upright.

I'm really unconvinced that this clip is resistive sparring. I think there's a lot of compliance and respect being given, despite any claims to the contrary. I just doesn't look 'real' to me.

Compare it to the clip of the famous Aikido guy (Kochi Tohei) going against the American who was having none of it...annoyingly it appears to have been removed from YouTube - there are little bits of it in this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1E1e36atA that breaks it down:

Edit: Ah, here it is:

I agree with you. I don't believe I ever said that this was an example of resistive sparring. And given that Tim's video has to do with walking, it really does not take much to have a counterexample. My motivation for bringing up that Judo video has more to do with an upright posture in motion with an opponent present in the context... outside of chorographic movements.

And if what you say about Tim's case is true, then I don't think there's much disagreement then.

Another example is here:

https://youtu.be/qieNJY3gx6I?si=tEsyloM9giOMZPlE

This appears to be Fixed Step Tuishou. Appears to be rather casual. But they're ultimately rather upright overall, and Chen Yu is just being like this immovable object.

[origami_itto]

Upright vs not upright

https://www.facebook.com/atomictaiji/po ... Cdd9GyFKzl

[ParadoxTeapot]

The following has some hilariously bad players in Push Hands which is made even more funny given that the title is "Best Taiji Push Hands" which means... these are apparently cherrypicked to be the best ones - so the ones that aren't shown here are presumably even worse somehow:

https://youtu.be/qlUN8ePAEz0?si=Tuh57hZR2Bm4ySyj&t=18

Their bodies are very much like a wooden plank leaning at a near 45-degree angle against a wall. Although in some cases, it's even worse in that it's TWO wooden planks leaning 45 degrees against each other.

They're like: "How can I put myself into the most unstable position as humanly possible?"

Collegiate wrestlers lean forward all the time, but at least they have the common sense to bend their legs and drop down.

[origami_itto]

Well... the best at that event.

I hesitate to comment on it, there is the game and there is the skill and I'm not much good at either.

[GrahamB]

Push hands competitions are silly - never been interested.

1. I think there’s a lot of lack of respect for wrestlers on this thread - I just don’t think most people get how skilled wrestlers are - usually way more skilled than tai chi people. WAY more. And at all the things tai chi is supposed to be good at.

This guy gets it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7t-TN7xLBg



2. The thread has also become about leaning - go back to the OP about head over foot and it’s not really about leaning - it’s about side crunching and keeping your head over your foot not in the middle.

[wayne hansen]

Some wrestlers are very skilled some are not
Just like tai chi people

[ParadoxTeapot]

Push hands competitions are silly - never been interested.

1. I think there’s a lot of lack of respect for wrestlers on this thread - I just don’t think most people get how skilled wrestlers are - usually way more skilled than tai chi people. WAY more. And at all the things tai chi is supposed to be good at.

This guy gets it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7t-TN7xLBg



2. The thread has also become about leaning - go back to the OP about head over foot and it’s not really about leaning - it’s about side crunching and keeping your head over your foot not in the middle.

On this thread? Was wrestling even brought up prior to my previous post? Do you mean this forum instead of this thread?

I completely agree that wrestlers could crush most Tai Chi people. When I said wrestlers lean... well... do you disagree? I meant that as a fact... not a "Ha! Look at those peasants, leaning forward like that. That's wrong for wrestling!" Is that the tone you thought I had?

A common criticism of push hand competitions is that they often look like bad wrestling, which already implies that wrestlers would dominate them.

[everything]

way back when ... when "martial artists" much like "mma fighters" came from a youth wrestling background before they learned some kind of "IMA" ... well, that's different, isn't it? Now, for the purposes of stupid internet discussions, it's a stupid moot comparison all based on self selection. Jon Jones and similar self selects to national wrestling championship then UFC MMA p4p best of all time. Some hippie self selects to taijiquan, not even really for "martial arts" (which is of course totally fine and better than fine). How is this hippie going to know ANYthing about the "martial" parts? And then we criticize someone for being into yoga? It's insanely stupid. Let's just completely destroy the dead horse, why don't we? What is the point really? What were we talking about?

[GrahamB]

It makes me miss reading people's bickering online because the disagreements are more mentally stimulating. Reading about a group of people agreeing that keeping an upright posture being a good thing is not exactly my idea of thought-provoking.

Apologies for me ranting to myself.

My work is done.

[origami_itto]

It makes me miss reading people's bickering online because the disagreements are more mentally stimulating. Reading about a group of people agreeing that keeping an upright posture being a good thing is not exactly my idea of thought-provoking.

Apologies for me ranting to myself.

My work is done.

This generation shall never know the war it took to earn this peace.

[wayne hansen]

Tohei would have been playing with a lot of Judoka in the Hombu back then
Not too muck of Aikido or KI used in that one