It's Fascia-nating

[wayne hansen]

Good summation
It is exactly what some of us here have been saying

[wiesiek]

I don’t think u understand the 3H it’s form and function

yes, you`re right, think more, thinking has a future

all the best on the Way.

[wiesiek]

PS
I give you a tip:
think about word >undirectly<

[wayne hansen]

I know English is not your first language and I respect anyone who can speak more than one language
I am not that gifted
most of the time I just don’t get what you are saying

[origami_itto]

Good summation
It is exactly what some of us here have been saying

Yeah, me too. Here's some more research that you might pay more attention to than my analysis.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00336/full

Recent studies have elaborated the role of muscular fascia as essential force transmitter in muscular dynamics (Stecco et al., 2006, 2009; Huijing, 2009; Maas and Huijing, 2012; Pavan et al., 2015; Krause et al., 2016). However, fascia is usually considered as a relatively inert tissue that is assumed to serve a passive role only in musculoskeletal biomechanics.

In contrast to this common assumption there have been sporadic indications of a more active role of fascia due to an inherent ability to actively contract. These indications include the reported phenomenon of “ligament contraction” of human lumbar fascia in response to repeated isometric strain application in vitro (Yahia et al., 1993), the documented presence of interspersed cells with smooth muscle-like appearance in the human fascia cruris (Staubesand and Li, 1996; Staubesand et al., 1997; Bhattacharya et al., 2010), and the clinical experience of seemingly animated fascial tonus changes in response to fascia manipulation treatments frequently reported by manual therapists (Minasny, 2009) and acupuncturists (Langevin et al., 2001).

You can see me use this to move confused people in some of the videos I post.

[wiesiek]

ah, ok
then,
I will try to be as English, as possible in my case.
All my posts here, (in most cases), are from my >guts<.
I tend to believe them, `cause I trained them last 50 years,
speaking so, I do not pretend to be the Master, or Fascia Guru for that matter,
I`m just traveller on the road.
Translation from my English on popular one:
Direct thinking isn`t always the best way to reach the aim.

Hope, that I`m clear enough,
If not, I will always be glad to explain my position.
best

[Kelley Graham]

I teach that fascia is important. if you break it, you suffer greatly, so follow instructions. when asked, "Can you do things with the fascia? Can you fight with the fascia, can you feel the fascia? etc" I answer "Everything you do relies on the fascia, but you can't manipulate it directly. Besides, the indirect experience of the fascia doesn't feel anything like how the anatomy looks." Here's an excerpt from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10135675/

"...2. Role of Fascial Tissue and Pathological Reactions
Fascia is widely distributed from head to toe; it encases and permeates muscles, bones, blood vessels, nerves, and internal organs, constitutes various layers of different depths [25], and is a connective tissue composed of irregularly arranged collagen fibers, clearly different from the regularly arranged collagen fibers found in tendons, ligaments, or periosteal sheets [26]. Additionally, it supports important functions of the human body, such as posture, movement, and homeostasis [25,26,27,28], and also contains various sensory receptors for proprioception, nociception, and even hormones [28].

Structurally, fascial tissues are composed of various cell types (fibroblasts, myofibroblasts, myofascial cells, and telocytes), as well as fibrous (type I and type III collagen fibers, elastin, fibrillin), aqueous (a complex mixture of water and glycosaminoglycans) components, and neural elements (free nerve endings and mechanoreceptors) [29,30]. The fact that the fascia can transmit tension far is the basis of the “biotensegrity” framework [31,32]. Biotensegrity is the application of the principle of tensegrity to the understanding of human movement, where tensegrity is an architectural principle according to which a structure (or tensegrity system) is stabilized by continuous tension with discontinuous compression and functions as a single structure [32]. As the tension in the fascia increases, the connective tissue can disperse the force around it and propagate it along the fascial system [31,32,33,34]. Forces passively imposed on the muscle by stretching are distributed throughout the tissue via the intramuscular connective tissue [33,34]. Fascia transmits tension, influences other muscles, plays a role in the proper coordination of body movements, and can reflect the direction of force vectors. Fascia can actively contract, and changes in tension are caused by contractile cells [35]. Myofibroblasts are present in developing and normal adult tissues and are responsible for altering tissue tension [35]. Normal fibroblasts are highly sensitive to physical stimuli.

The transition from fibroblast to myofibroblast is influenced by mechanical stress. Upon mechanical tension, fibroblasts differentiate into proto-myofibroblasts, which contain actin stress fibers in their cytoplasm that terminate in a fiber bundle adhesion complex [25,36,37]. The adhesion complex bridges the internal cytoskeleton and integrins of myofibroblasts with extracellular matrix (ECM) fibronectin fibers. Thus, this allowed contractile forces to be generated in the nearby ECM when traction is applied; moreover, forces within the ECM are maintained over time and are further enhanced by remodeling and collagen deposition [37]. In addition, chronic strain, such as sitting or overuse of muscles [38,39,40], infection and inflammation [40], and immobilization of the limb by trauma, fracture, or casting [28,29,30], can produce further contraction of myofibroblast smooth muscle actin fibers and contribute to joint contractures. These environments make it difficult to maintain a relaxed state, resulting in decreased mechanical tension, and consequently, myofibroblasts either dedifferentiate or undergo apoptosis [37]. The tipping point between exercise and rest is unknown; however, multiple repetitions of the contraction cycle may result in graded and irreversible tissue contraction [37]."

[origami_itto]

[Giles]

Giles,

Just want to pick your mind from your professional knowledge on the following two scenarios if you don't mind.
1. The person can move freely and casually from one posture to the next. I would think either the person can relax the whole body inside out or he swings casually without connection.
2. The person finds himself stuck and has to take a lot of effort to move from one posture to the next. On this, he could have his bones, tendon, membrane (fascia???) ... aligned and locked up so his movements are restricted.

Thanks for the questions, which require a lot more than yes-or-no answers. (Not that I'm an authority or anything like that). But right now I have some kind of cold/flu thing, so I need a lot of rest and I'll get back to you once I've recovered.

[Giles]

Thanks for posting/passing on this description, Kelley. It's a good summary, which I'd interpret (from the point of view of a movement-interest person) as: Fascia help to distribute load and tension away from a specific point or line of effort/stress, transferring it more widely through the body and integrating the body's response. The extent and manner to which fascia can do this can be influenced both positively and negatively by stimuli (screw them up or free them up). So create good conditions and stimuli, and both movement and general health will probably benefit.

I teach that fascia is important. if you break it, you suffer greatly, so follow instructions. when asked, "Can you do things with the fascia? Can you fight with the fascia, can you feel the fascia? etc" I answer "Everything you do relies on the fascia, but you can't manipulate it directly.

That's incorrect, insofar as fascia can be directly manipulated, albeit subtly, in some kinds of physical therapy. As I wrote before. For instance one can connect with the fascia in the thighs or calves of a client (lying on a treatment table, for instance), exert quite subtle traction, and fascia up through the neck and around the top of the head will respond and 'open up'. Both practitioner and client (if the latter has some sensitivity) may be able to sense this.
Otherwise, as said ten times already, any good 'normal' internal training that can combine relaxation and opening/stretching at the same moment ('fang song') will tend to have a similar effect. Probably distributed more generally through the body, but that's a secondary issue.
Now I'm going back to bed...

[Kelley Graham]

Thanks for posting/passing on this description, Kelley. It's a good summary, which I'd interpret (from the point of view of a movement-interest person) as: Fascia help to distribute load and tension away from a specific point or line of effort/stress, transferring it more widely through the body and integrating the body's response. The extent and manner to which fascia can do this can be influenced both positively and negatively by stimuli (screw them up or free them up). So create good conditions and stimuli, and both movement and general health will probably benefit.

I teach that fascia is important. if you break it, you suffer greatly, so follow instructions. when asked, "Can you do things with the fascia? Can you fight with the fascia, can you feel the fascia? etc" I answer "Everything you do relies on the fascia, but you can't manipulate it directly.

That's incorrect, insofar as fascia can be directly manipulated, albeit subtly, in some kinds of physical therapy. As I wrote before. For instance one can connect with the fascia in the thighs or calves of a client (lying on a treatment table, for instance), exert quite subtle traction, and fascia up through the neck and around the top of the head will respond and 'open up'. Both practitioner and client (if the latter has some sensitivity) may be able to sense this.
Otherwise, as said ten times already, any good 'normal' internal training that can combine relaxation and opening/stretching at the same moment ('fang song') will tend to have a similar effect. Probably distributed more generally through the body, but that's a secondary issue.
Now I'm going back to bed...

no. since the fascia goes everywhere and is part of everything, embedded if you will, it's always part of something else, some other structure. when speaking to DO's, i am clear to make this point. the idea that you can directly connect to the abstraction that is the 'fascia' actively and vigorously inhibits the ability to sense and connect to the actual causes of the structural imbalance. i have demonstrated this on the table. imagining that you are contacting the fascia with your touch closes off the pathways to the bone.

[windwalker]

..." how it can be used in training..."
You can not use it in training, you train It undirectly for removing all >internal blockades<,
this gives you uninterrupted internal connection, which allows you to use technique as it was designed.

The word for fascia in Chinese is "筋膜" (jīnmó)

Never associated it with the English word, because the Chinese word was used when this was mentioned.

In China this was explained to me using a chicken talking about the connective tissue explaining the differences between it and tendons.

" 筋膜是贯穿全身的一层纤维结缔组织（疏松或致密结缔组织）。 它覆盖皮肤并包围肌肉、肌群、血管、神经和内脏。 筋膜有浅筋膜、深筋膜和内脏筋膜（浆膜下筋膜）三种类型，连续延伸至全身。 筋膜的主体是纤维结缔组织，可能含有脂肪组织、血管和神经。 疏松结缔组织主要位于浅筋膜和内脏筋膜； 致密结缔组织主要位于深筋膜内，其中含有排列紧密且规则的胶原纤维。 胶原纤维的方向是沿着张力的方向，因此深筋膜具有很强的单向拉伸性能。 关于筋膜的组成和分类存在争议。 常用的定义是：1983年版的解剖学术语（NA 1983）。 。 1997年版解剖学术语"

Fascia is a layer of fibrous connective tissue (loose or dense connective tissue) that traverses the entire body. It covers the skin and surrounds muscles, muscle groups, blood vessels, nerves, and internal organs. Fascia has three types: superficial fascia, deep fascia, and visceral fascia (subserous fascia), which extend continuously throughout the body. The main component of fascia is fibrous connective tissue, which may contain adipose tissue, blood vessels, and nerves.

Loose connective tissue is mainly located in the superficial fascia and visceral fascia, while dense connective tissue is primarily found within the deep fascia, which contains densely arranged and regularly aligned collagen fibers. The direction of collagen fibers follows the direction of tension, thus the deep fascia exhibits strong unidirectional tensile properties. There is controversy regarding the composition and classification of fascia.
A commonly used definition is from the 1983 edition of the Nomina Anatomica (NA 1983). The 1997 edition of anatomical terminology."

a little old but may help to offer a starting point...

Something that we didn't cover so in depth but used the practical effects..

In our practice we use 3 levels of contact. skin, hair and air...
this means there is no direct transfer of momentum via percussive impact..

We use rubbing, rolling, twisting as different ways transfer / conduct momentum.

1. how it can be used in training ?

A: Depends on the practice what it's based on


2. You can not use it in training.

A: If the practice is dependent on it, it is used in the training to affect it.

3. you train It undirectly for removing all >internal blockades<,
this gives you uninterrupted internal connection, which allows you to use technique as it was designed.


A: True, more so if the technique / method used is designed to affect it.


This might account for some of reactions not understood when viewed in video clips...
the comments on other teachers using it to explain their work.

I've found the comments a common reaction even among people watching the demos "until"
They also find they react in the same way...Something I noted in a recent trip to Taiwan...

Kinda, funny as they started to react in ways, which they would have labeled as fake had they saw in a video clip.
Used to tell them to "stop faking it" they laughing insisting they were not...


That being said, there is more to it, this understanding would be considered as a starting point..

[Steve James]

@Giles and Kelley

So, the question seems to be whether one can manipulate the/a fascia independently, or manipulate what is non-fascia in isolation.

In either case, is there a way to tell whether whatever functional problem that exists is caused by something wrong with fascia aopt muscle, tendon, or bone, etc? Are there specific symptoms either of you have encountered?

[suckinlhbf]

The word for fascia in Chinese is "筋膜" (jīnmó)

Sometime it is hard to associate Chinese Word with English Word.

In the older time (100 years ago, may not be so old), they claimed some practices were on "筋膜". Sit on a low horse stance, put both hands out to the front with palms facing out, fully stretch the hands, move the palms horizontally to the side of the body, retract the palms straightly back to the side of the body, pull out again. and then repeat. The original saying is to focus on the palm and foot, don't use any force, do it causally and steadily with "元气".

They did not explain how but let the practitioners to find out by doing it.

[origami_itto]

In our practice we use 3 levels of contact. skin, hair and air...
this means there is no direct transfer of momentum via percussive impact..

We use rubbing, rolling, twisting as different ways transfer / conduct momentum.

So what I understand at this point is the center versus the surface. A teacher called the surface the fascia but I don't know if that's helpful.

If we model the exchange like pool balls, contacting the center is a ball hitting another ball head on and the angle of incidence and reflection are greater than 0%.

Connecting with the surface is like the ball just hits the bare millimeter on the side and sets the other ball rolling.

Maybe if you're familiar with the game you might know the terms masse or english.

We drill this in a particular way where the action of the "push" is not driven by the muscles forcing our body against theirs, but after connecting to the surface, you just relax into the finished posture and the power manifests naturally.

Localized tension breaks the long connection through the body and limits power to what is between the contact and the tension... basically. Two or more pieces that are kind of connected but not really meaningfully integrated.