the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Don't knock those people in chairs. One day you won't be able to stand. In fact, whatever ability you have now, one day you will lose. Tough shit. So, be grateful you can do what you can.

I agree that one should do what one can do. Ideally, start when you're young and keep going as long as you can. Anyway, everyone starts from where they are. It starts with getting up out of bed.

Afa that last video of John's,, I know lots of young people who can't do it. And, I don't imagine I'll see many 80 year olds doing it either -unless they've always been doing it (like Madam Fu).

that's why tai chi is in fact "superior". providing the most benefit for the largest number and most diverse range of people with different abilities. not so much in the extreme edge case of a "Yang the Invincible" or whatever it is that ma enthusiasts want in this tiny niche.

The first person I saw do the Chair Trick was Huang
I thought he did this for the same reason he changed his foot position in his 5th exercise
The difference I see with Huang and others doing the Chair Trick is he showed very subtle pushing and partner manipulation that could be applied to real pushing and combat
Apart from the over cooperative students and parlour tricks he had real skill

Imo, the purpose of the chair exercises (or chair tcc) isn't necessarily to gain the ability to defend oneself while seated. The exception is only for people who can't stand up. For only everyone else, working out in the chair is to gain the ability to stand. Standing is exercise, but it's necessary to begin moving. Iow, doing anything seated is only a goal for people with specific needs or reasons to remain seated.

Several tcc masters developed seated practices because they had paralysis or some other disability.

And this is why I favor this art over any other modality. It does what it does very well, the only limit is where the student wants to stop advancing.

I lost a book of drawings of Chen Wei Ming doing chair exercises I wish I still had it
I was talking about the Chair Trick pushing from a seated position
When my mother in Law was in a nursing home and using a walking frame I went in and taught the residents how to use them to regain mobility
I got to the point where they were doing walking 4 hands and ta Lu using the frame as the opponent
I have nothing against tai chi exercise in a chair even though I think it’s be if it’s are limited and there are better ways and methods
Like yoga ball and yoga exercises

How can we disconnect Taiji with old, sick, and weak?

At this point of my age, I want to do something that can make me to feel young, healthy, and strong. I don't want to do something that remind me old, sick, and weak. This is why I prefer to spend my training time to maintain my "leg skill".

I feel

- happy when I can still move fast, kick my foot over my head, and remain good single leg balance.
- sad when I do slow movement with both feet on the ground.

When I did my daily 3 miles walk, sometimes I drilled slow Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji. An. I suddenly felt sad. I then switched to fast praying mantis Gou, Lou, Cai, Gua, I suddenly felt happy.

Am I the only person in the forum who feels this way (slow = old and sad, fast = young and happy)?

How can we disconnect Taiji with old, sick, and weak?

We can't separate "Taiji" from anything. If it comes down to fighting, that's been done. Not to mention that taiji wushu -forms competitors, are great athletes. In both cases, however, there are those who won't accept what someone else does as taijiquan.

Any tjq form can be made really difficult physical exercise. If that's what someone wants, they can make it harder. If someone can kick eye-height, there's nothing to stop them. Iow, it's not the art that has any limitation. Some people won't be able to raise their feet that high. Some will do it without trying; some will try until the can.

I think you're right to keep as active as possible. I try to do the same, and I'm in the 70s club too. But, I know lots of people who for whatever reason (diabetes, arthritis, stenosis, cancer, etc) have not been able to maintain their physical health. I give those who start more credit than those who've been fortunate enough not to have had any health issues. Elderly people who end up in rest homes may live longer if they just do simple exercises. If tjq or 'taichee' helps them, there's no loss to tjq.

If tai chi makes you sad might be something wrong with the way you are doing it

johnwang wrote:When I did my daily 3 miles walk, sometimes I drilled slow Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji. An. I suddenly felt sad. I then switched to fast praying mantis Gou, Lou, Cai, Gua, I suddenly felt happy.

Am I the only person in the forum who feels this way (slow = old and sad, fast = young and happy)?

The instruction when going "slow" is that the spirit of vitality is to be aroused internally.

"slow" practice isn't just moving slow. It's the speed it needs to be to do what it is supposed to be doing. DEEP work.

I think it is critical to know why you do what it is you do. If what you are doing makes sense to you, then it's good.

One thing Western science has discovered is that different people respond differently to the same medicine, and the same to different medicine. Sometimes a particular medicine works for a while then it needs to be changed.

Everything is like that, we learn and move and process information differently. We've each wired this complex machine ourselves with no instructions taking cues from the culture we were immersed in. We;ve had diferent foods, different education, climate, exercise.. we've lived different lives, and our bodies and spirits have adapted to survive within those contexts.

How can we expect all this diverse genetic and environmental influence and programming to produce a creature that can be always be served by the same exercise?

There's a plethora of activities to engage in, pick what you like and work at it, who cares what anybody else does?

When it comes to taijiquan at this point it is more of a philosophy than a single pedagogy. If it can be said to approach the same result then the art is taking the student (or themselves) into account and doing what needs to be done at that point in that subject's development to get them closer to the target end result.

To that end, a truly competent teacher understands the impact of each of the exercises on the particular student and can guide them through the exercises best fit for their level of development.

For some people, that's pistol squats, for some it's chair based qi-gong.

For some, I guess, it's standing on one leg for an hour, whatever floats your boat. The point is not that you are an invincible warrior, the point is that you are stewarding, cultivating, and expressing your human endowment.

wayne hansen wrote:If tai chi makes you sad might be something wrong with the way you are doing it

It's all in my mind. When I get older, I hate anything that is associated with "old, sick, and weak".

When I

- was young, I knew I could move fast, so I didn't mind moving slow.
- get older, I'm afraid that someday I won't be able to move fast anymore, when I realize that I can still move fast, I'm happy. I like to maintain that happy feeling as long as I can.

As I get older, I enjoy it all!

- Mantis, longfist makes me happy
- Bagua, xingyi makes me happy
- Taiji, qigong makes me happy

It's all good! Different kinds of happy. Fast is good, slow is also good. Mostly I am just sad when I cannot do some things anymore.

Today I did cartwheels in the first time in like 20 years, it's a kind of happy!

Maybe if I work hard I can learn digongquan at this age.

johnwang wrote:When I
...
- get older, I'm afraid that someday I won't be able to move fast anymore, when I realize that I can still move fast, I'm happy. I like to maintain that happy feeling as long as I can.

I understand what you mean. You are already much stronger than many in your age. When you are young it might be harder to grasp this. For a few years ago I suddenly found out, that when you get older, your strength and stamina disappear very fast if you don't continue training. It's good to train strength and speed. But Tai Chi training and Tai Chi jibengong can also help you to maintain fundamental core strength. So IMO, everything that can help you to keep help and strength is good.

Always appreciated this flavor for us "oldsters" who still want to practice bajiquan even though he warns not to use this flavor for exercise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7o-C8PvVoU

18,701 views Jun 11, 2006
A different BajiQuan, performed by Damon Hwang (黃偉哲) in Jan 2005, Taipei. ** Warning ** This is a show only, not the original practice. Do not follow the video for your actual exercise.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kE5FvEmBTg

Then there is the old favorite - relaxed postures, breathing while holding postures (mind directed to parts of body coordinated with breathing) and simply tune the fajin for "old age"



Nice way to practice praying mantis in "old age"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFVwpHMN2M

Seven Star Mantis Boxing, Teacher Jia (name unknown), Eight Elbows, 2017
七星螳螂拳　賈老師(お名前不明)　八肘　2017年



Slow this down a bit and try a lighter da qiang and this is workable in "Old Age"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzdN4NQkHfE

Hebei Province's Chuanqi family Tongjiquan.
Original title: "Teacher Xu Dong, the seventh generation successor of Qi Jia Tong Arm Boxing"

Bao wrote:when you get older, your strength and stamina disappear very fast if you don't continue training. It's good to train strength and speed. But Tai Chi training and Tai Chi jibengong can also help you to maintain fundamental core strength. So IMO, everything that can help you to keep help and strength is good.

It's all about how to "maintain" your skill/ability through your old age.

When I get old, my leg skill will lose faster (I believe it has to do with balance and flexibility) than my punching skill. This is why I try to spend more time to maintain my leg skill.

Yesterday when I walked in the park, I did the following leg skill combo drills. I developed those leg skills when I was young. I don't want to lose it.

1. toes kick, jab, cross, heel kick.
2. roundhouse kick, spin back kick.
3. inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick.
4. outside crescent kick, leg swing overhead.
5. outer hook, inner hook.
6. leg spring, foot sweep.
7. foot sweep, front cut.
8. inner sickle, leg lift.

IMO, it's much easier to maintain the punching skill. I don't need to spend too much time to maintain it.

Try to maintain some skills developed during young age can be a hard work.