Teacher Profile

[GrahamB]

Can there really be such a thing as a "fighting form"? - just think about that for a moment before answering.

[Bob]

Absolutely no expert in pushing hands and fighting forms (primarily because none of my classmates was interested in pushing hands when they had praying mantis and bajiquan to learn fighting with). However, when we did do the basic pushing hands, after sometime, we learned to execute an application of a posture through pushing hands - no linkage simply "this postures can be applied through pushing hands this way" posture by posture but no linked form.

Two person "fighting" was added to the forms I knew in say bajiquan very very late in practice. We almost always did posture application first and then in two person drill. Again no linkage simply posture by posture applications and drills. Maybe there is some training benefit to doing the "fighting form" but only as part of a complete training & development package. Didn't TT Liang have a long two person fighting form?

In Yang style taijiquan I always thought the fajing expression was very subtle bursting from a well aligned flowing structure.

I don't know, lots of stuff out there - not my intention to claim I know what others do or what I know is somehow optimal- simply sharing experiences and information and appreciating as to how others do it.

[Steve James]

I agree with Bob in several ways, particularly when it comes to learning "some" applications of the "forms" they practice. Fast and slow are relative. Obviously, anyone who intends to actually use whatever will depend on many factors. Not least of which is the fact they might be "faster" than they are. As shown in the video threads, tcc practitioners who haven't sparred much simply won't do as well. And, no one will say that it "looks" like tcc.

Afa a form that is specifically designed to be done fast, I don't really know the history of them in the various families. Anyway, afa a form designed to teach applications -that are applicable in push hands, there's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHBYElhNTUU

The idea is to use most of the forms in the traditional form, and show applications and the counters. Of course, one issue is that both people are doing tcc. There might be faster examples on the net somewhere.

[everything]

it's odd b/c "push hands" is its own thing and not "free fighting" (whatever that is).

if "push hands" is supposed to teach you "something" that you can use in "fighting", that's different.

it's not worth beating the dead horse. everything is about assumptions.

[wayne hansen]

The above form is the San shou form
Doc is a CLF guy who dabbles in TCC and that clip shows it
The TT Liang corn is the San Shou Witt all the various pushing walking 4 hands and ta Lu scattered through it
Fighting form is a bit like JKD just a name and one the author is sorry he came up with
When doing the San Shou it should only go until there is a Hollow or Projection
Then revert to pushing or jostling for position to get back to the pattern
Perhaps the fighting forms should be called something like
The more direct idea of how it really works form
I usually don’t let students do more three moves in the San shou sequence as a two set at a time
I then show them how it is applied if the attacker slightly changes the target or angle of attack
As for not using fighting forms or pushing if you do other arts that fine but let’s not call it tai chi
It is a whole other art

[Steve James]

if "push hands" is supposed to teach you "something" that you can use in "fighting", that's different.

Maybe it does, if it's not about how to push hands. Afa application/s, the idea is to practice the "13 postures." It's just necessary to have a partner.

[wayne hansen]

PS as for pushing it is like all the other parts of TCC
It is a step on the way to learning a complete art
The problem is most people have learnt small parts of the overall curriculum and tried to fill in with stuff from other arts
It is a bit like speaking Spanglish good in its own right but neither English or Spanish
Take HSS quick fist a form I learnt but one I no longer practice
It is white crane done in a TCC manner
He did this because he felt he needed more than the CMC curriculum
It is interesting that towards the end of his life he adapted more white crane to a TCC format
All his weapon forms are his own invention some a combination of yang and Wu some from White Crane and like is spear just the 37 done with a spear
He also talked about moving to New Zealand and just teaching Whitw Crane

[windwalker]

Doc is a CLF guy who dabbles in TCC and that clip shows it
T

@ wayne. feel free to post any clip of your self, ...It would be good to see an example of someone who is not a "dabbler"


Doc-Fai,,,a friend of mine

"He is also a second-generation disciple of Yang Cheng-Fu, having studied under Dr. Hu Yuen-Chou, a closed-door disciple of Yang Cheng-Fu. Y

Doc-Fai Wong was the coach for the United States team competing in the Republic of China International Tai Chi Chuan Federation's World Championship Push Hands competition - an international tournament held every few years in Taiwan. In 1987, his team was the first and only U.S. team to win anything at this tournament, placing second only to Taiwan

A "dabbler".

[wayne hansen]

Dabbles

[Graculus]

Unless I’m seeing a different video, that was very definitely not Doc Fai Wong doing the san shou (although it was his school).

Hu Yuen Chou was very well regarded amongst the group of teachers known as fighters in Hong Kong, and his tai chi was first-rate – although he trained in choy lay fut first, (and taught it), tai chi was his primary art.

I don’t know how Doc Fai Wong regards his own taichi skill, (his long history in the art not withstanding); some skilled practitioners mix their arts. Some keep them separate. Some like one more than another.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[windwalker]

Doc-Fai

when I met him long ago, was quite humble and very approachable.

On a number of different sites he used to have a question and answer

He and Jane Hallander did a lot to make CMA accessible to the general public...

For anyone wanting to know more about him directly
his site

https://www.docfaiwongcenter.com/


The key is accessibility....which he and other teachers of that time, provided...Something for most is not always so easy without knowing somebody or having someone introduced them to somebody...
Or having skills as such that, they tend to attract others with high-level skills.......

Chinese have a word for fate,,,緣份 yuan fen
something one is fated to, can not be forced

[Trick]

isnt the fast forms of Dong taiji referred to single peson taolu ?
but now after Grahame's question everyone begin to speak about two pers sparring forms as being the fast forms ?

[Steve James]

Oh, I'm not saying the two-person form is fast. It can be done faster than in the video. But, the speed isn't really the issue. Imo, at first people learn the pattern. They should know the individual movements from the form from practicing it. So, yeah, it'd be possible to teach a dancer to do the movements in a short time.

"Push hands" teaches using peng, lu, ji, and an. But, learning applications for the four corners fills it all in. With those elements, it's possible to do anything else in most forms. It's great to say that a student should learn the long form. In one sense, it's unnecessary. Otoh, if those movements aren't practiced, there's little point in learning them. A short form with everything necessary will have better results. Ok, if 10000 times are necessary for practice, then 1000 uses in application may be necessary. That takes time, and a lot of failures.

Afa other martial arts and tcc, there's probably never been a time when people (experts) only practiced one martial art. Imo, if someone studied baji, their understand of the use of elbow and shoulder will be enhanced. Well, I have a bias. I'd say that in a fight, you use what you got and what you know. I think it's foolish to think "I'll use my tcc, not my wing chun." I won't care whether it looks like tcc or that the tcc/ima community will approve.

[Trip]

any yang taiji fast form most probably came around -
1 : from students seeing the masters personal spontaneously freestyling the traditional form, and then tried as best they could to recreate into a formalized exercise what they seen...

The Fast Sets, Long Boxing, ext., are old Taiji Fight training methods that were Passed on.
Yang Chengfu’s Older Family members, Uncles, Older brother, practiced these methods.

Yang Shaohou, Yang Chengfu's older brother, learnt some of his skills from his uncle Yang Banhou. His Taiji high "frame" had lively footwork and small movements, alternating quick with slow actions. He was swift and powerful in delivering his blows roaring and howling as he darted back and forth.

The techniques of his Taiji were: overcoming strong attacks with soft movements, adapting oneself to others' movements and following up with quick attacks, using the motion of "sudden connection" to defeat the opponent with surprise attacks. The hand movements included catching, pushing and capturing, injuring the attacker's muscles and harming his bones, attacking the opponent's vital points and "controlling" his arteries and veins, using "continuous" and "sudden connection" force to throw the attacker to the ground with lightning speed.

They are not made up or died out; the are passed on.
Yang Chengfu passed these Taiji Training methods on to his disciples, Chen Wei-ming, Tung Ying-chieh, etc.

Yang Chengfu passed it on his son, Yang Sau Chung, and he passed it to his children. His children still teach it to their Taiji students today.
Some of their students are members of RSF.

"When he (Yang Chengfu) gave demonstrations" during his early days in Shanghai, which was setup by his disciple Chen Weiming, Chengfu performed the movements of kicking with speed and force. Later, however, to suit the needs of treating chronic disease, he changed them into slow movements with inner exertion of force. And in such movements as punching downward and punching the opponent's pubic region, he only made imitations instead of manifest exertions of force, thus making the set of movements continuous and evenly paced."
Gu Liu Xin, in his introduction to 'Yang style Taijiquan' by Yang Zhen Duo

Though, Chengfu took them out for treating disease,
The Yang Style Taiji that Tung Ying-chieh passed down to his children and their families
still retain many of the old training methods like Rapid Kicks, etc.,
in their Tradition Yang Style Taiji

Those old Yang Style Training methods,
informs all the Taiji they do.

Those old Taiji Training methods are in the Fast Sets

Just like sparring,
Taiji fast form, Long Boxing, are Shadowboxing that
can help Taiji Students increase accuracy,
form, technique, footwork and prepare them for real fights.

Fast sets do not take the place the slow set;
they are another Tool in the Taiji Training Toolbox.

So, do the fast sets or don’t, it’s up to you.

[wayne hansen]

Some people do the San shou only as a two man practice
Like an extension of pushing hands
That is the case in the DFW students above
Some practice it as solo forms with little practical usage
Raymond Chung would teach it as a hard style form to those that just didn’t get the tai chi way of using it
There are varied ways of using it