Teacher Profile

[Trip]

Peter Lim has info on Yang Taijiquan Long Boxing
and, lots of other Taiji, too.

Tai Chi Long Boxing Today

Yang Cheng Fu's Tai Chi Long Boxing is seldom taught today. It is practiced by relatively few Tai Chi Chuan exponents even in China. Only those who trained in the earlier period with Yang Cheng Fu or his close disciples got to learn the form. It was kept quite secret and in Chen Wei Ming's lineage, its sometimes referred to as Tai Chi Kept Boxing (kept or keep in Chinese is pronounced 'chang' which is phonetically the same as the Chinese term for long, so this is a Chinese pun), meaning that it was kept within doors and not transmitted outside.

Yang Shou Chung, Yang Cheng Fu's son, taught this form to his three daughters and some of his close disciples like Mr Yip Tai Tuck and Mr Chu Gin Soon. They continue the family tradition of teaching this rare form to advanced students. There are also other teachers who continue to teach this advanced set. It is fortunate that this rare form is not lost and continues to guide serious Tai Chi exponents on the intricacies of Tai Chi combat.

https://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ycflbox.htm

https://www.itcca.it/peterlim/
https://www.itcca.it/peterlim/training.htm

[Bao]

Here's the original Chinese and Brennan Translation of the same passage.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... iji-sword/

太極長拳序
INTRODUCTION TO THE TAIJI LONG BOXING SET

...

That seems pretty cut and dry to me and in no way confusing. Are YOU confused?

Lol! Had completely forgot about this passage. Thank you.

So he does indeed differentiate between two different sets and name them different. Weird.

So now you have proven me utterly and embarrassingly wrong about CWM. Congrats. But I am still waiting for the proofs about Chen family had a distinct Taiji or Taiji-ish set called "changquan."

[Bao]

Peter Lim has info on Yang Taijiquan Long Boxing
and, lots of other Taiji, too.

Tai Chi Long Boxing Today

Yang Cheng Fu's Tai Chi Long Boxing is seldom taught today. It is practiced by relatively few Tai Chi Chuan exponents even in China. Only those who trained in the earlier period with Yang Cheng Fu or his close disciples got to learn the form. It was kept quite secret and in Chen Wei Ming's lineage, its sometimes referred to as Tai Chi Kept Boxing (kept or keep in Chinese is pronounced 'chang' which is phonetically the same as the Chinese term for long, so this is a Chinese pun), meaning that it was kept within doors and not transmitted outside.

Yang Shou Chung, Yang Cheng Fu's son, taught this form to his three daughters and some of his close disciples like Mr Yip Tai Tuck and Mr Chu Gin Soon. They continue the family tradition of teaching this rare form to advanced students. There are also other teachers who continue to teach this advanced set. It is fortunate that this rare form is not lost and continues to guide serious Tai Chi exponents on the intricacies of Tai Chi combat.

https://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ycflbox.htm

https://www.itcca.it/peterlim/

I like Peter's page, IMHO one of the best info pages about Taijiquan. As in Origami's quote, there's very little difference, virtually the same form. YCF seems to have modified it somewhat. So why it should be regarded as a secret indoor practice beats me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[origami_itto]

Stop playing with him Bao
you know darn well
nobody can convince you of anything
Go find out for yourself.

With sincerest respect, let them keep ringing the bell, to borrow a metaphor.

The more documentation that is uncovered regarding the form and postures the more the truth seems to point away from the need to preserve the Yang 108 Long Form as the one and only ultimate repository of Kinesthetic knowledge and practice necessary to transform one into a peerless boxer.

To reiterate the main points:

Forms serve purposes. Mindlessly preserving them without understanding the purpose defeats the purpose. The history of the art is that of the masters using the form, not becoming slaves to it.

A simplified or fundamental form serves the purpose of cultivating, for the sake of discussion let's call it ..Level 2 physical achievement.
Level 0 Jibengong
Level 1 would be your fundamental qigong.
Level 3, the advanced form would include the kicks and spins and one legged postures.
Level 4 is your 2 + 3 + fajin, or cannon fist type form.
Level 5 is your mixed used flowing form.
Level 6 is your free movement.
Level 7 is fighting? Maybe that happens outside the whole consideration of levels. You could fight at any time, but your progress here ostensibly would inform your performance.

Weapons I like as a bridge to two-person work and for other specific conditioning. Xin, Yi, Qi, Li, etc.

I need to get to my money work. Thank you for chiming in, Trip.

So why it should be regarded as a secret indoor practice beats me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The secrets keep themselves.

[origami_itto]

So now you have proven me utterly and embarrassingly wrong about CWM. Congrats.

I missed this a second ago. I appreciate that you have the integrity to say that. I do respect you even in my hyperbole.
I'm not trying to be falsely modest by saying it's not about proving anybody wrong. I just want good information to be circulating. I'm sorry if I came off like beating you over the head with it. You got me the other day about the corners!

But I am still waiting for the proofs about Chen family had a distinct Taiji or Taiji-ish set called "changquan."

I added a bit back to my original post there so you might have missed it.

As mentioned before, the long fist differentiation was part of the history of the evolution of the form that T. T. Liang teaches. He got the information from one of his... what dozen or so teachers? It is documented on wikipedia at least in Chen Wing Ting's page, and is common knowledge in several traditional lineages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Wangting

Influence on tai chi
Whether or not Chen invented the earliest form of tai chi is in dispute. Traditional folklore and many lineages name the semi-mythical figure of Zhang Sanfeng, a Taoist monk, as the progenitor of the art.

Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine. Chen is also credited with the invention of the first push hands exercises.[1] Chen also practiced a few Shaolin forms, and some historians postulate that Shaolin arts also had a significant influence on his tai chi, though none of the Taoist influences on Chen family tai chi exist in the Shaolin tradition.[2][page needed]

Chen Wangting's next well-known successor was the 14th generation Chen Changxing (1771–1853), who was the direct teacher of the founder of Yang-style tai chi: Yang Luchan.

This might be it, who knows, it's apocryphal in many ways, it's hardly my invention.

You can google chen chang quan or the various permutations of that to find more info.

[Trip]

As in Origami's quote, there's very little difference, virtually the same form. YCF seems to have modified it somewhat.
So why it should be regarded as a secret indoor practice beats me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you luck up on a good teacher
Practice it & you'll see.

Plus, that "little difference" you speak of
is a mix of Slow and fast movements
Changes of height & sudden fajin, etc.
causes big arguments.

Those "little differences"--
For people who are who are only exposed to
Yang Taiji that is even paced,
Quick steps and all the the other particulars involved
are a mystery to them.

They will say what you're doing
violates the principles of Yang Taiji so much
that it's no longer Taiji--
and, that you don't know what you're doing
etc., etc....

And, for most, when something is a mystery...
people fill in the blanks with their own imaginings.

Sometimes they imagine the worst.

[Bao]

As in Origami's quote, there's very little difference, virtually the same form. YCF seems to have modified it somewhat.
So why it should be regarded as a secret indoor practice beats me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you luck up on a good teacher
Practice it & you'll see.

Not interested, but thank you anyway.

Plus, that "little difference" you speak of
is a mix of Slow and fast movements
Changes of height & sudden fajin, etc.
causes big arguments.

So you mean that it would be the same as the "fast form"? I have a bit of a hard time to swallow that. The Yang fast frame variations I've encountered are very different from the "traditional" long form. It's not the same form.

Those "little differences"--
For people who are who are only exposed to
Yang Taiji that is even paced,
Quick steps and all the the other particulars involved
are a mystery to them.

They will say what you're doing
violates the principles of Yang Taiji so much
that it's no longer Taiji--
and, that you don't know what you're doing
etc., etc....

And, for most, when something is a mystery...
people fill in the blanks with their own imaginings.

Sometimes they imagine the worst.

I have no problem with faster pace or change of speed. What I am against is when Yang stylists try to copy the modern expression of Chen style.

[Bao]

So now you have proven me utterly and embarrassingly wrong about CWM. Congrats.

I missed this a second ago. I appreciate that you have the integrity to say that. I do respect you even in my hyperbole.

Thank you, I try my best to not come off as a pompous jerk.

I'm not trying to be falsely modest by saying it's not about proving anybody wrong. I just want good information to be circulating.

"Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine. Chen is also credited with the invention of the first push hands exercises.[1] Chen also practiced a few Shaolin forms, and some historians postulate that Shaolin arts also had a significant influence on his tai chi, though none of the Taoist influences on Chen family tai chi exist in the Shaolin tradition."

Wikipedia is not to be trusted, and now I am not referring to the fact that just like most social media and many video streaming platforms, Wikipedia is a CIA contractor and used as a tool for US propaganda. Sometimes it's just not reliable. This is not your fault, but there's only a note ( [note 1] ) about the name as "continuous" but there's no source to support the claim. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In fact there are no proofs that CWT created a distinct number of routines and there's no mention of "changquan" in the Chen family records. All there is, is a note that CWT created "Chen boxing". This note was added late by Chen Xin. The problem is that not Chen Xin himself or any of his generation believed that CWT created Taijiquan. So what he meant was something else.

[Trip]

That's the Bao I know

Right back to imagining the worst
and lobbing insults

[Bao]

That's the Bao I know

Right back to imagining the worst
and lobbing insults

[origami_itto]

So now you have proven me utterly and embarrassingly wrong about CWM. Congrats.

I missed this a second ago. I appreciate that you have the integrity to say that. I do respect you even in my hyperbole.

Thank you, I try my best to not come off as a pompous jerk.

I'm not trying to be falsely modest by saying it's not about proving anybody wrong. I just want good information to be circulating.

"Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine. Chen is also credited with the invention of the first push hands exercises.[1] Chen also practiced a few Shaolin forms, and some historians postulate that Shaolin arts also had a significant influence on his tai chi, though none of the Taoist influences on Chen family tai chi exist in the Shaolin tradition."

Wikipedia is not to be trusted, and now I am not referring to the fact that just like most social media and many video streaming platforms, Wikipedia is a CIA contractor and used as a tool for US propaganda. Sometimes it's just not reliable. This is not your fault, but there's only a note ( [note 1] ) about the name as "continuous" but there's no source to support the claim. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In fact there are no proofs that CWT created a distinct number of routines and there's no mention of "changquan" in the Chen family records. All there is, is a note that CWT created "Chen boxing". This note was added late by Chen Xin. The problem is that not Chen Xin himself or any of his generation believed that CWT created Taijiquan. So what he meant was something else.

Well the CIA is well known to be keenly interested in the historical accounting of 18th century Chinese martial arts syllabi, good job keeping em honest!

There aren't any references online that don't use that exact verbiage. You can check the claimed primary sources on wikipedia for more info on that.

I first heard this before Wikipedia existed, in Ray Hayward's collection of essays called "String of Pearls", this was published in 2003 and the wikipedia article on Chen Wan Ting was added in 2009, not sure about the specifics of his form.
https://www.lulu.com/shop/ray-hayward/s ... pageSize=4

As previously mentioned, that's what he was taught by T. T. Liang, who had a number of well known teachers with extensive knowledge of the system and its many evolutions. Ray also studied Chen for a while and has insight into the structure of the modern routines.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ifBmD ... &q&f=false

Of course they are probably ALSO in league with the spooks.

I'm sure there's someone on this board that knows more about the history of Chen style and the forms credited to Chen Wan Ting, but the commonly accepted theory put forth by multiple Chen schools and at least one Yang lineage is what I mentioned. He taught seven sets.

Your refutation is "nuh-uh!"

[Bao]

I'm sure there's someone on this board that knows more about the history of Chen style and the forms credited to Chen Wan Ting, but the commonly accepted theory put forth by multiple Chen schools and at least one Yang lineage is what I mentioned. He taught seven sets.

Your refutation is "nuh-uh!"

I believe in a whole bunch of so called conspiracy theories (CIA invented the term "conspiracy theory"), but I don't belief in Tai Chi myths regardless what is "commonly accepted" and how many Chen style practitioners keep repeating them.

Yesterday it was all about Zhang Sanfeng, today it's all about Chen Wangting. I can't really see any difference between them, everything about them being the "founder of Tai Chi" are equally myths.

[origami_itto]

I'm sure there's someone on this board that knows more about the history of Chen style and the forms credited to Chen Wan Ting, but the commonly accepted theory put forth by multiple Chen schools and at least one Yang lineage is what I mentioned. He taught seven sets.

Your refutation is "nuh-uh!"

I believe in a whole bunch of so called conspiracy theories (CIA invented the term "conspiracy theory"), but I don't belief in Tai Chi myths regardless what is "commonly accepted" and how many Chen style practitioners keep repeating them.

Yesterday it was all about Zhang Sanfeng, today it's all about Chen Wangting. I can't really see any difference between them, everything about them being the "founder of Tai Chi" are equally myths.

Well glad to see you remain firmly grounded in logic and historical fact.

[windwalker]

First intro to taiji was tung/dong style
Learned the both fast sets among other things…

In the end felt it was too similar to what I already knew. After watching some of the older students sparring with no distinct discernible movements from the practice. Stoped my practice at the gym at the time…
Should mention also left another gym teaching Hop Gar, among other long arm styles under a noted teacher of it for the same reason
both in Hawaii...long ago..

Feeling in both cases what was practiced was not being used, even among the students who had been there for a while…
Something very different from my previous practices…

A small epiphany reached through this process. …”more movement wasn’t needed, what was needed the essence of movement”..


With out knowing the theory, of what ever method "insert name" it may not be a true reflection of it…
Regardless of what I personally feel about something or somebody's practice. What I look for is the practice itself and usage reflective of the practice... Based on the theory, if one is available.

Some thoughts by a practitioner

The current development trend of Tai Chi movement has been hijacked by specific movements. It only has the appearance of Tai Chi without the connotation of Tai Chi. Making so-called "Tai Chi movements" gradually replaces how to make movements that conform to the principles of Tai Chi. Become the mainstream of learning Tai Chi.

My recent visit to Taiwan helped to reinforce thoughts on this in interacting talking with some of the older teachers…

[windwalker]

I first heard this before Wikipedia existed, in Ray Hayward's collection of essays called "String of Pearls", this was published in 2003 and the wikipedia article on Chen Wan Ting was added in 2009, not sure about the specifics of his form.
https://www.lulu.com/shop/ray-hayward/s ... pageSize=4

As previously mentioned, that's what he was taught by T. T. Liang, who had a number of well known teachers with extensive knowledge of the system and its many evolutions. Ray also studied Chen for a while and has insight into the structure of the modern routines.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ifBmD ... &q&f=false

"

some of Ray hayward's work