Teacher Profile

[Trick]

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching...

I don’t understand this statement Wayne

Are you saying that Alex Dong no longer teaches or offers
the complete Yang Long Form & Weapons?

Are you saying that he does not teach or offer the complete teachings
that his forefathers passed down to him through his family?

I was thinking somewhat like these questions too, but not in arguing with Wayne, I think he point out relevant things in this thread, as in other threads too.
From what I understand from the OP - Alex Dong most probably teach the whole Yang family tjq curriculum, how ever the Dongs seem profiling their own family Taiji, and with Alex Dong it seem more things been added to the curriculum and students seem to have to go trough that stuff before entering the actual and relevant Yang Taiji curriculum……basically a longer way to go.
This may actually turn out so that the impatient students that the new curriculum is directed to drop of before they learn anything from the authentic Yang Taiji curriculum…….which may be a good thing then since they then have no chance of watering down authentic Yang taijiquan

[Doc Stier]

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching...

I don’t understand this statement Wayne

Are you saying that Alex Dong no longer teaches or offers
the complete Yang Long Form & Weapons?

Are you saying that he does not teach or offer the complete teachings
that his forefathers passed down to him through his family?

In all fairness to brother Wayne, perhaps he feels justified in implying such things for reasons only he can clarify.

[Bao]

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching...

I don’t understand this statement Wayne

Are you saying that Alex Dong no longer teaches or offers
the complete Yang Long Form & Weapons?

Are you saying that he does not teach or offer the complete teachings
that his forefathers passed down to him through his family?

Can't really understand why it's hard to get what Wayne said. Continue reading and get the context straight.

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching
As soon as the teaching is made to suit the student and the student not made to fit the art there is only one outcome

The problem is not what forms are being taught. He speaks about the method of teaching. What I think he is referring to is a general problem in the Tai Chi world. But I can't see how it could be anything else with the present and popular teaching forms, where teachers are traveling across the world to do short seminars. Taijiquan doesn't suit brief, large classes. It demands very specific hands on teaching, personal teaching. Even though Yang Chengdu also taught large classes, his closest students would always study with him in small groups and in private. In Taijiquan there's no other way of transferring skills.

Anyone can learn forms and exercises. But in Taijiquan there are subtleties you cannot see with your bare eyes. Just doing forms and exercises won't get you anywhere. You need to become shaped in certain ways, in ways that you can't do by your own. You need good personal guidance to get there, someone helping you to re-shape the way you are standing, moving, and sometimes, also how you are thinking. As different students need different things, the teaching needs to be tailored. If you only attend large unpersonal classes, or travel between seminars just to claim "great masters" ( ) your own teachers, your Taijiquan will always be empty and shallow.

I don't claim to be able to read Wayne's mind, but this is my interpretation of "making the student fit the art" (and not what is commonly seen, teaching made to suit the student.)

[Trip]

In all fairness to brother Wayne, perhaps he feels justified in implying such things for reasons only he can clarify.

I agree that Wayne's statement
"implied such things for reasons only he (Wayne) can clarify."

That's why did not ask other people to explain what Wayne said or meant.

My questions were specifically only addressed
to Wayne

BTW, my questions were not a attack on his statement
nor, a demand that he has to answer

I was just curious

[Bao]

"Asking" someone by misrepresenting what he says or cutting away the context is just not a serious way of asking. It doesn’t show you are really interested to get a reply.

My explanation was not addressed to anyone particular or meant as reply on a question, just giving away some personal reflections.

This thread has become ridiculously affected by personal "feelings" and people taking everything personal. HTFU people. Listen more and try to understand what people actually mean instead of being so damn stingy. Ridiculous.

[Giles]

There are various factors when it comes to using Zoom in the teaching of tai chi, speaking generally. During and after the Covid crisis I did regular teaching via Zoom, although not as a separate commercial project, and gained some experience with this.
Obviously the biggest drawback is, like Wayne says, the impossibility of hands-on correction. This is a particular problem when the teacher and the student(s) have never been in direct contact, or only fleetingly. Just as we experience time and again on RSF, verbal information like terminology, descriptions of movement and descriptions of sensations are hugely open to interpretation, which in turn is based on personal experience and ability. No matter how clearly and precisely you as teacher think you are expressing yourself, you can almost guarantee that the Zoom learner – with the best will in the world – is going to understand you in a slightly or totally different way. Either because they have no experience or concept of what you're talking about, or because they've heard similar words/terms from other teachers and they think they know what you mean, when in practical terms you mean something different. Physically showing it (on a camera) might help to clarify, but often not really.

On the other hand, if the teacher and the student(s) have already had some regular live contact in the past, especially with hands-on training and correction, then a common understanding and vocabulary may be established. In this case, some teaching and corrections can be effective and can help the student progress further. That will be even better if the teacher really knows the student – can remember who he or she is, which particular movement issues that student tends to have – and hence can give a particular correction at the right moment. I find it surprising what you as teacher can actually see happening in a student’s body via video, once you’ve got used to the medium. (Although you’ll inevitably miss other things). The teacher will probably have to remind the student of this issue a hundred times anyway, even in live and hands-on contact, so it’s no problem for this correction to be given online too – as long as the student actually understands what's involved. Of course, this also assumes that at some point the teacher and student will be meeting again live, to iron out the inevitable misunderstandings or blind spots and continue the proper teaching.

So basically Zoom teaching can be a good bridge, certainly much better than nothing, to cover the periods between real hands-on sessions if the teacher and student are more distant geographically. It's a good resource that simply didn't exist in the past. On the other hand, if Zoom is the main teaching medium with little or no real-life teaching contact, then in most cases I wouldn’t rate it – and it can give the student a false sense of learning real stuff when they’re actually off-target.

[wayne hansen]

I think the above statements have clarified what I meant
I don’t go back over a whole thread to see what I have written
Like pushing hands each response is directly relavent to what has been asked
Back in the 70’s I was asked to do seminas on the north coast of Australia
I had 50 or more students at each one
I realised that no matter what I taught all it did was allow me to correct the mistakes in the students and give them something to go on practicing isolated from a teacher
It takes quite a bit of constant correction to mould someone into an internal martial artist
I realised that if I kept doing that I was only robbing them
As well as that I was away from my real students
Those that don’t realise that are better off sticking with the Zoom format
I wonder at these seminas how much face to face contact with each student is done
What is the number of students divided by the actual training time
I admire the Dong family especially the grandfather his skill at pushing is high
It is not about Dong but the method of transmission and the eventual outcome
Can you call someone your Sifu when you see them once a year and in the mean time visit them on Zoom
Anything put up on a site like this is open for comment if it is not PM it to people individually
I have never recommended students or teachers because this takes a special responsabilité
I am not invested in what is said here it is like the magpie geese who flew over me while I trained this morning
Nice to see but soon gone

[origami_itto]

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching...

I don’t understand this statement Wayne

Are you saying that Alex Dong no longer teaches or offers
the complete Yang Long Form & Weapons?

Are you saying that he does not teach or offer the complete teachings
that his forefathers passed down to him through his family?

He's still teaching the long forms, hao form, etc. Just prefers new students start with the simplified stuff in order to develop a base.

first I only learned the sabre form to get back into weapons, then I kept going back for weekends when he came to Austin and getting more exposure to the material and the students. I honestly didn't think much of the style at first.

He’s curriculum first teach the Dao and then a modified and “more balanced” short form of the first section of the long taijiquan form (that is already balanced) ?

Anybody can come to the seminars or workshops and pick something up. I wasn't interested in the empty hand stuff at the time.

with Alex Dong it seem more things been added to the curriculum and students seem to have to go trough that stuff before entering the actual and relevant Yang Taiji curriculum……basically a longer way to go.

The simplified and advanced forms are relevant Yang curriculum. It's "Dong style taiji". The point is that the simplified form is where some students are going to hang out to focus on that material till they get to a point where they can move on comfortably, and they're not left with this feeling of being half done with something.

By having a "complete" sequence to practice it's easier to commit to regular training. That's just basic psychology.

The simplified doesn't have kicks or low work. The advanced does. Put the two together and you have everything that you have in the Yang form, with fewer repetitions.

Once you learn the whole thing, then learn to do it with the fajin.

Like me, I had a 150 posture form, the CMC 37 via HSS, elements and animals, palm changes... I mean I have a lot of movements in my body.

I took two years to focus on the first section of the simplified form, and a third to learn the second.

So then I pick up the DYJ fast form and it's much easier to do and learn.

Then doing the Yang sequence is just a matter of choreography that at that point should be pretty easy to pick up.

In my opinion, there's only one task here, cultivation. Particular sequences aren't that important. You can see that across the board with teachers that are evolving the arts, they spend far more time on qigong and conditioning than form.

If you have taijiquan then you can learn forms easily. If you don't have taijiquan then it doesn't matter what movement patterns you're following, you're just waving your arms around.

[origami_itto]

Can you call someone your Sifu when you see them once a year and in the mean time visit them on Zoom

Definitely, unreservedly, proudly, without hesitation or question.

Might not be for you, but you eat vegemite so your opinion is invalid.

Thanks for doing your part to save Taijiquan, Wayne.

[origami_itto]

So basically Zoom teaching can be a good bridge, certainly much better than nothing, to cover the periods between real hands-on sessions if the teacher and student are more distant geographically. It's a good resource that simply didn't exist in the past. On the other hand, if Zoom is the main teaching medium with little or no real-life teaching contact, then in most cases I wouldn’t rate it – and it can give the student a false sense of learning real stuff when they’re actually off-target.

That's basically the idea. You've got reference DVDs, and the Zoom classes for self study. Once a year, maybe more, a weekend intensive with tons of hands on corrections, then usually at least once during the year I'll go for a private lesson when he's in town visiting his sister. It's working for me. I can tell, the people I play with can tell. Constantly re-reading the books, I know more about his great grandfather than I do about my own grandfather.

Also of course, he's watching my push hands videos and then in class or privates, he's offering suggestions about the specific problems he sees me having there.

That's why I bring it up here. People that are curious about the system have a way to start getting information. It's a good system, better than just relying on a local teacher.

And of course, the kicker is he does workshops where there are existing students of his or his father who have students of their own. That's the key that folks are missing. The overarching plan is bringing up competent instructors in the basic method to keep local classes going. There's a whole group of us that he is working with as instructors to learn how to teach the forms and qi gong to better prep students for when he comes through.

This converstion just reminds me of that saying "Those that say it can't be done should just sit back and watch me do it"

[Trip]

Hey Wayne,

I think...
in your way, you addressed my questions to you...??

I'm guessing…
Cause, I don’t Know
if the "Above statements have clarified"
Meant your statements or the other people
who tried speaking for you

I really can’t tell

So, I’ll just say
Thank you, Wayne

[Trip]

Sounds like one more step in the watering down of real teaching...

Are you saying that Alex Dong no longer teaches or offers
the complete Yang Long Form & Weapons?

He's still teaching the long forms, hao form, etc. Just prefers new students start with the simplified stuff in order to develop a base.

Thank you!
From the uproar, I started to wonder if Alex had cut some postures out of Yang Taiji …or something
and had totally gave up Teaching, or offing, Yang Long Form, Hao, etc.

Thanks for the info
Happy Training!

[Bao]

he's watching my push hands videos and then in class or privates, he's offering suggestions about the specific problems he sees me having there.

Fair enough. Comparing zoom and live classes, don't you think, by your own experience, you get more, and more valuable, input when you meet him in private?
If you could meet him in person one or two days a week, or have a couple of zoom meetings per week, what would you prefer?

That's why I bring it up here. People that are curious about the system have a way to start getting information. It's a good system, better than just relying on a local teacher.

If you can find a local teacher with real skills and study continuously with him, it would be a better option. What system you practice doesn’t matter, the skills do.

And of course, the kicker is he does workshops where there are existing students of his or his father who have students of their own. That's the key that folks are missing. The overarching plan is bringing up competent instructors in the basic method to keep local classes going. There's a whole group of us that he is working with as instructors to learn how to teach the forms and qi gong to better prep students for when he comes through.

I see... So Dong will come to local schools and correct the students' basic method. So when and how does he plan to let the students pass the perpetual beginner's stage?

[origami_itto]

he's watching my push hands videos and then in class or privates, he's offering suggestions about the specific problems he sees me having there.

Fair enough. Comparing zoom and live classes, don't you think, by your own experience, you get more, and more valuable, input when you meet him in private?
If you could meet him in person one or two days a week, or have a couple of zoom meetings per week, what would you prefer?

I don't know, honestly.
I get more than enough to work on with the Zoom lessons, I get access to the recordings so I can refer back to them if I have any questions. That also allows me to make up material if I have a commitment during class time. I have access to him for any questions and regular in person contact for the invisible details.
I mean I guess ideally EVERYBODY KNOWS that going in to a class several times a week is better. I don't know about that, all things considered. New York is expensive. I like my house.

That's why I bring it up here. People that are curious about the system have a way to start getting information. It's a good system, better than just relying on a local teacher.

If you can find a local teacher with real skills and study continuously with him, it would be a better option. What system you practice doesn’t matter, the skills do.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. I meet and work with people all over the place, constantly. How could you really consider yourself a martial artist any other way?

But the system does matter. They may all lead to the same place, but they take different routes. Taijiquan in particular they say has a path an inch wide and a mile deep with a bottomless pit of doom on either side. (That last part is mine)

There are a couple people in the state that I would like to spend more time with in person, but they don't have the videos, or books, or workshops, or zoom courses. I have to take a day off of work and drive for four hours or more. We meet up occasionally and push and talk and it's a good thing. Working on building a critical mass for regular local meetups and it's going well.

And of course, the kicker is he does workshops where there are existing students of his or his father who have students of their own. That's the key that folks are missing. The overarching plan is bringing up competent instructors in the basic method to keep local classes going. There's a whole group of us that he is working with as instructors to learn how to teach the forms and qi gong to better prep students for when he comes through.

I see... So Dong will come to local schools and correct the students' basic method. So when and how does he plan to let the students pass the perpetual beginner's stage?

It's a buffet. Put whatever you think you can eat on your plate and he will show you how to use the chopsticks, so to speak. It's up to you to get it in your mouth.

Before we scheduled this winter's workshop we (the local instructors) got together with him to decide what would be the most appropriate things to cover for the students that were interested.

So, basically, early July I met with him in Orlando for a private lesson, we worked out the schedule for the workshop in December. DYJ Fast Form, Simplified Form, Long Form, Sabre, Jian, Push Hands.

I was finishing up the Simplified form Zoom course, started the Fast Form Zoom course. Both of them also cover the fundamental qi gong, and he's teaching the jian during the fast form.

I left my watch behind, a two hour drive from my place, so he just brought it home with him and I bought a fast form/fajin form dvd and he mailed it back with that.

In the back of Workshop Notes, he's got pictures of each of the postures in the fast form.

So... all told, fast form, I've got his book about how to do it, his pictures of him doing it, a DVD copy of the form, 12 hour long Zoom sessions going through the form step by step and six months of study time to prep for four hours of in person instruction over the weekend. Within the context of a growing teacher-student relationship and the common understanding of each other's knowledge and limitations.

It's coming along very well, and my simplified form is like butter, so smooth.

And I'm not unique or in any way one of the closest students. He's open to working with whoever is sincere and putting in the work.

[windwalker]

Like me, I had a 150 posture form, the CMC 37 via HSS, elements and animals, palm changes... I mean I have a lot of movements in my body.

I took two years to focus on the first section of the simplified form, and a third to learn the second.

So then I pick up the DYJ fast form and it's much easier to do and learn.

Then doing the Yang sequence is just a matter of choreography that at that point should be pretty easy to pick up.

In my opinion, there's only one task here, cultivation. Particular sequences aren't that important. You can see that across the board with teachers that are evolving the arts, they spend far more time on qigong and conditioning than form.

If you have taijiquan then you can learn forms easily. If you don't have taijiquan then it doesn't matter what movement patterns you're following, you're just waving your arms around.

some thoughts, FWIW

It may take awhile to find the right method teacher that fits what one is looking for.
Depending on depth of practice how the "sequence's" are practiced and why, may not be too different or very different.
A little more then just a method of movement...

If one "has taiji" what one "has" or feel they may have, is largely dependent on the method used to acquire it up to a certain level, past it most teachers find it very hard if not impossible to "change" it should one feel the need to say go from "Chen" style to "Yang" or the "CMC" method to any of the other taiji expressions "practices" ect..

"So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang."

Run into this all the time with long term taiji practitioners wanting to work with me learning the method I use.

Used to ask those doing so to stop practicing what they practiced, no longer do so, feeling in most cases until a person reaches their own understanding of why. Most still continue to do so, feeling they can..keep both...not understanding "less is more"

there is a saying "a teacher can lead you to the door, its up to you to walk through it"

The most important part might be the clarity needed and understanding.
Which door is the right door....for oneself.

first intro to taiji was in 1980 in Hawaii a little known taiji master Sam Kakina , asking to be called “Sam”
and his noted student Shifu Peter Tam Hoy. Teaching the Tung/Dong taiji style…
Your teacher would know them both....

Most of what your teacher outlined was the syllabus used by Sam and Peter at the time.
Which I had to stop when I started with the CMC practice. A practice closer to my last teacher's method
but also different...

In closing you may find that other teachers using different methods my feel that indeed you'er "you're just waving your arms around"

should you want to practice or pick up their method helping you to develop and find your own..

Sounds like you found the right method, and teacher for your practice

all good...